My View Of Calvinism

[thessalonian]

He sends people to hell without doing anything about it when he says he "desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth". /Gee, I desire that man to be saved who is drowning but I am not going to throw this life saving device out to him. I'll just sit here and wait for him to drown. He'll try save himself of course but can't". This God is a monster.

This is sad theology.


Any calvinists out there want to tell me different?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='24 August 2009 - 11:18 AM' timestamp='1251127130' post='1955556']
He sends people to hell without doing anything about it when he says he "desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth". /Gee, I desire that man to be saved who is drowning but I am not going to throw this life saving device out to him. I'll just sit here and wait for him to drown. He'll try save himself of course but can't". This God is a monster.

This is sad theology.


Any calvinists out there want to tell me different?
[/quote]
As a former Calvinist, I can tell you that is a complete misrepresentation of Calvinist thought on salvation. It's almost polar opposite of what Calvin taught, actually. Rather than waiting for man to save himself, God is the one doing the entirety of the work. Man is dead in his sins, unable to rescue himself from his sad plight, and Christ comes in providing the only lifeline. The view you've posited is not much different from Pelgianism; Calvin taught the opposite of Pelagianism. Where he's wrong is that we cooperate with God in salvation. It is not a one-sided thing.

[Apotheoun]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1ckoCBtXvU&feature=channel_page[/media]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Terra Firma' date='24 August 2009 - 02:26 PM' timestamp='1251134771' post='1955586']
As a former Calvinist, I can tell you that is a complete misrepresentation of Calvinist thought on salvation. It's almost polar opposite of what Calvin taught, actually. Rather than waiting for man to save himself, God is the one doing the entirety of the work. Man is dead in his sins, unable to rescue himself from his sad plight, and Christ comes in providing the only lifeline. The view you've posited is not much different from Pelgianism; Calvin taught the opposite of Pelagianism. Where he's wrong is that we cooperate with God in salvation. It is not a one-sided thing.
[/quote]

Good luck getting your point across... don't know how many times I've stated in plain English what Calvinists actually believe and the next week the same errors are repeated. The irony is that Calvinism is wrong enough without lying about it.

One of my favorite preachers is a Baptist/Calvinist in thessalonian's 'hood. And if I needed any justification for listening to non-Catholic preachers, I learned that Archbishop Chaput listens to a Methodist preacher (among others) in preparing his homilies since the Latin Rite is generally on the same Scripture cycle as most of the mainline Protestant communions.

[Apotheoun]

Thessalonian's comment has nothing to do with Pelagianism; instead, he is simply pointing out the end consequence of Calvin's views on double predestination.

That said, the primary error of Calvinism is its rejection of synergism.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Terra Firma' date='24 August 2009 - 01:26 PM' timestamp='1251134771' post='1955586']
As a former Calvinist, I can tell you that is a complete misrepresentation of Calvinist thought on salvation. It's almost polar opposite of what Calvin taught, actually. Rather than waiting for man to save himself, God is the one doing the entirety of the work. Man is dead in his sins, unable to rescue himself from his sad plight, and Christ comes in providing the only lifeline. The view you've posited is not much different from Pelgianism; Calvin taught the opposite of Pelagianism. Where he's wrong is that we cooperate with God in salvation. It is not a one-sided thing.
[/quote]

No, I think you misunderstand. I am not speaking from the perspective of the saved but the unsaved. The limited atonement aspect of Calvinism. God does nothing to save some. God predestins some to heaven and some he predistins to hell. I know what pelgianism is. I know that there position is that if you are saved it is completely God's doing and not any of you. My motivation for posting is listening to James White this morning. I don't think I misrepresent or lie about his views at all. Some are just damned because God damns them. Oh well. Apotheoun gets my drift.

Edited August 24, 2009 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='24 August 2009 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1251135516' post='1955595']
Good luck getting your point across... don't know how many times I've stated in plain English what Calvinists actually believe and the next week the same errors are repeated. The irony is that Calvinism is wrong enough without lying about it.

One of my favorite preachers is a Baptist/Calvinist in thessalonian's 'hood. And if I needed any justification for listening to non-Catholic preachers, I learned that Archbishop Chaput listens to a Methodist preacher (among others) in preparing his homilies since the Latin Rite is generally on the same Scripture cycle as most of the mainline Protestant communions.
[/quote]


Why don't you try to understand someone's post before accusing them of lying. She didn't understand my point.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='24 August 2009 - 01:45 PM' timestamp='1251135953' post='1955601']
Thessalonian's comment has nothing to do with Pelagianism; instead, he is simply pointing out the end consequence of Calvin's views on double predestination.

That said, the primary error of Calvinism is its rejection of synergism.
[/quote]

I would agree. Actually that is at the root of my problem. Irresistable grace is a cause of the problems I see as well. I think that is the big issue with why they don't understand that God damns noone and there is sufficient grace for all to be saved and then some (i.e. grace is infinitely available through the merits of Christ, man by his will opens himself up to it)

Edited August 24, 2009 by thessalonian

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='24 August 2009 - 11:59 AM' timestamp='1251136779' post='1955605']
No, I think you misunderstand. I am not speaking from the perspective of the saved but the unsaved. The limited atonement aspect of Calvinism. God does nothing to save some. God predestins some to heaven and some he predistins to hell. I know what pelgianism is. I know that there position is that if you are saved it is completely God's doing and not any of you. My motivation for posting is listening to James White this morning. I don't think I misrepresent or lie about his views at all. Some are just damned because God damns them. Oh well. Apotheoun gets my drift.
[/quote]
Thessalonian is correct about Calvin's understanding of predestination. Here is what Calvin himself said on the subject:

[size="3"]By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which He determined with Himself whatever He wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. [[i]Institutes[/i], Book III, Chapter 21, no. 5][/size]

Edited August 24, 2009 by Apotheoun

[thessalonian]

That god is a monster.

Edited August 24, 2009 by thessalonian

[Apotheoun]

Calvin's understanding of predestination is closer to that held by certain schools in Islam than to historic Christianity.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='24 August 2009 - 01:31 PM' timestamp='1251135103' post='1955591']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1ckoCBtXvU&feature=channel_page[/media]
[/quote]
The animation in this is funny.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='24 August 2009 - 01:54 PM' timestamp='1251143653' post='1955644']
The animation in this is funny.
[/quote]
It is pretty funny. Phatmass should create some little videos through xtranormal.com.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='24 August 2009 - 03:03 PM' timestamp='1251137024' post='1955607']
Why don't you try to understand someone's post before accusing them of lying. She didn't understand my point.
[/quote]

Well, let's see... you throw out some random, uncited quote, followed by a critical remark, and no reasoning either way. I don't know what we are supposed to say in response?

Calvinists believe that since "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God," that eternity in hell is simply justice, plain and simple. That God saves even one person by His grace is pure mercy on His part. That God saves many by His grace is abundant mercy.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='24 August 2009 - 02:21 PM' timestamp='1251145285' post='1955659']
Calvinists believe that since "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God," that eternity in hell is simply justice, plain and simple. That God saves even one person by His grace is pure mercy on His part. That God saves many by His grace is abundant mercy.
[/quote]
You forgot to mention that Calvin also believed that God positively wills -- by an eternal decree -- the damnation of some men.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='24 August 2009 - 01:59 PM' timestamp='1251136779' post='1955605']
No, I think you misunderstand. I am not speaking from the perspective of the saved but the unsaved. The limited atonement aspect of Calvinism. God does nothing to save some. God predestins some to heaven and some he predistins to hell. I know what pelgianism is. I know that there position is that if you are saved it is completely God's doing and not any of you. My motivation for posting is listening to James White this morning. I don't think I misrepresent or lie about his views at all. Some are just damned because God damns them. Oh well. Apotheoun gets my drift.
[/quote]
I see where you are coming from. Your original post was a bit unclear as to where you were going. To me at least. My bad.

Even this statement, though, is a bit misleading in stating Calvin's understanding of predestination. To my knowledge, God's damnation was always tied to man's sinfulness -- it is not as completely arbitrary as your statement seems to indicate ("Some are just damned because God damns them").

It's closely tied to his ideas on total depravity, though, and with other theological constructs. While it seems monstrous when separated out from everything else, the idea of unlimited atonement/predestination does make some sense in the context of the rest of his philophical/theological framework. In my humble opinion, you have to consider the system as a whole before you begin picking it apart, so the flaws become more apparent. As I noted in my earlier posts, one of the overarching problems with Calvin's theology is the fact that he doesn't acknowledge man's cooperation in salvation, and focuses heavily on God's sovereignty. This is the big problem I had with it, and where, as Apo pointed out, Calvin comes close to Islamic views on God. Over and over again, we see God seeking loving relationships with his people, and this is described in many different ways -- parent's love for child, spousal love, and so on. Calvin's God, though, comes across as more of a puppeteer -- and how can that relationship truly be loving? For love to be real, there must be a choice NOT to love, and Calvin seems to ignore that possibility. This was one of the big things that caused me to begin questioning Calvinist theology.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='24 August 2009 - 04:21 PM' timestamp='1251145285' post='1955659']
Well, let's see... you throw out some random, uncited quote, followed by a critical remark, and no reasoning either way. I don't know what we are supposed to say in response?

Calvinists believe that since "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God," that eternity in hell is simply justice, plain and simple. That God saves even one person by His grace is pure mercy on His part. That God saves many by His grace is abundant mercy.
[/quote]

I didn't quote anybody. I stated my opinion.
Well let's see. So the thing to do is call someone a liar. Apotheoun got what I was getting at so evidently the fault was not mine. . I understand what and why calvinists believe. So far you haven't changed or added to my understading. That God doesn't save all even though he could makes him a liar without free with and with irresistable grace. "God desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth". The God of calvinism does not fit that passage no matter how many he saves. If his grace were irresistable then he is not an infinite God because he does not save all. Then his grace is limited as well.

[thessalonian]

"It's closely tied to his ideas on total depravity, though, and with other theological constructs. While it seems monstrous when separated out from everything else, the idea of unlimited atonement/predestination does make some sense in the context of the rest of his philophical/theological framework."

NO it seems monsterous when included with everything else. If God's grace is infinite and "God desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth" and his grace is irresistable and yet he limits the atonement such that some get this grace and some he simply leaves to go to hell because of their total depravity which he has the life saving device to throw in the water for them. They cannot possible save themselves and he sits on the edge of the water, knowing how to swim and having life saving equipment and says "you deserve to be in that water and drown". That God is a monster.


Last night there was a new story. A man jumped off a bridge here in minneapolis. Maybe you saw it since you live here. The guy was trying to comitt suicide but by the time the rescuers got there he was happy to have been saved according to one of them. It struck me when the reporter went down the road of "well gee this was what he wanted and he was endangering all of you rescuers" the implication was in some way "was it really worth the risk when he wanted to die". THe guy said "this is just what we do". You could see on the man's face a sense of satisfaction no matter what the risk of saving a human life. That feel of the great worth of the human made in the image and likeness of God, though certainly in the sin of despair. If man can have that much desire to save another, and God says he "desires that all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth", certainly ALL THE MORE then the only thing that makes sense and does not make a god who is a liar is that we have free will and it is up to us to tap in to that saving grace won for us on the cross.

Edited August 24, 2009 by thessalonian

[Sojourner]

Ok.

[Selah]

My view on Calvinism?

It's disgusting.