My View Of Calvinism

[Jordanus]

[quote name='Terra Firma' date='24 August 2009 - 01:45 PM' timestamp='1251146704' post='1955670']
Calvin's God, though, comes across as more of a puppeteer -- and how can that relationship truly be loving? For love to be real, there must be a choice NOT to love, and Calvin seems to ignore that possibility. This was one of the big things that caused me to begin questioning Calvinist theology.
[/quote]

The thing I've always found particularly horrifying about Calvin - or at any rate, the positions of Calvinists I've spoken with - is how they say that the only reason why God saves some is to show forth His mercy, while He allows the rest to be damned to show forth His justice.

What I cannot seem to successfully communicate to them is why this horrifies me so - because it means that, on this view, God doesn't even love the saved! He is using them, and that isn't love. And it isn't quite clear to me, either, why it's so important to God to show us these things. After all, knowing them does nothing (on this view) to help us, and it certainly does nothing to help Him! Why, on this view, does God bother to reveal Himself at all?

At this point, I always get told that "God's ways are not our ways," and if I can't get it, so much the worse for me. It really is love because God says it is. I usually reply, "He did say, 'My ways are not your ways,' but He also said, 'As far as the heavens are above the earth, so far are my ways above your ways.' At least we know which direction to point - UP! You depict a God who is LESS than a good man instead of more."

P.S. I've never been able to grasp how anyone can read the Bible - to say nothing of live life! - and come away with the idea that grace is irresistible! Of course, I'm not proud of learning by experience that it can be resisted, but there you are!

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='24 August 2009 - 07:53 PM' timestamp='1251154390' post='1955729']
I didn't quote anybody. I stated my opinion.
...
"God desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth".
[/quote]

Then what is this? You've quoted this twice now and never provided a reference.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='25 August 2009 - 07:51 AM' timestamp='1251208318' post='1956062']
Then what is this? You've quoted this twice now and never provided a reference.
[/quote]
It is a quotation from scripture (1 Timothy 2).

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Jordanus' date='24 August 2009 - 09:32 PM' timestamp='1251160364' post='1955776']
P.S. I've never been able to grasp how anyone can read the Bible - to say nothing of live life! - and come away with the idea that grace is irresistible! Of course, I'm not proud of learning by experience that it can be resisted, but there you are!
[/quote]

I've made the same point. The clarification to make is that ultimately -- for one who dies in God's grace -- grace is irresistible in the end.

[Apotheoun]

Grace never overpowers the free will of man; instead, it perfects it, and so I would refrain from using the phrase "irresistible grace" even in relation to the saints in the eschaton.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='24 August 2009 - 05:24 PM' timestamp='1251145440' post='1955660']
You forgot to mention that Calvin also believed that God positively wills -- by an eternal decree -- the damnation of some men.
[/quote]

Well, there are thousands of pages of Calvinism I neglected to mention, least of which would be the other four points of the TULIP, not to mention the fact that nearly all of these five points are debated even among Calvinists.

To play devil's advocate, a Calvinist would respond by asking, which is the greater injustice: that a sinner receives their just punishment, or that the Son of God died a sinner's death?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='25 August 2009 - 07:59 AM' timestamp='1251208759' post='1956069']
To play devil's advocate, a Calvinist would respond by asking, which is the greater injustice: that a sinner receives their just punishment, or that the Son of God died a sinner's death?
[/quote]
The Calvinist would say that because the system devised by Calvin is founded upon a false notion that the legal metaphors used in scripture are to be taken literally.

The damned by their own free will choices d[color="#000000"]a[/color]mn themselves.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 August 2009 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1251209148' post='1956073']
The Calvinist would say that because the system devised by Calvin is founded upon a false notion that the legal metaphors used in scripture are to be taken literally.

The damned by their own free will choices d[color="#000000"]a[/color]mn themselves.
[/quote]

And that's justice. The only injustice is that Christ died for the sins of the elect. Yet, if salvation comes from the greatest evil in human history, which was ordained by God, then who are we to argue with the perfectly just damnation of sinners?

Edited August 25, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='25 August 2009 - 08:21 AM' timestamp='1251210100' post='1956088']
And that's justice. The only injustice is that Christ died for the sins of the elect. Yet, if salvation comes from the greatest evil in human history, which was ordained by God, then who are we to argue with the perfectly just damnation of sinners?
[/quote]
It is just, but it is a sentence enacted by the individual, and not by God, who continues all the while to love them as His own dear creation.

God did not ordain the fall of man, and the "O Happy Fault" idea, which is poetic hyperbole, is not accepted as literal in the Eastern tradition, because of its Manichaean overtones.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Apotheoun

[thessalonian]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='25 August 2009 - 09:51 AM' timestamp='1251208318' post='1956062']
Then what is this? You've quoted this twice now and never provided a reference.
[/quote]

Don't ya know your bible man. Don't ya have a search tool?

1Tim.2

1. [4] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1Tim.2

Edited August 26, 2009 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='25 August 2009 - 09:59 AM' timestamp='1251208759' post='1956069']

To play devil's advocate, a Calvinist would respond by asking, which is the greater injustice: that a sinner receives their just punishment, or that the Son of God died a sinner's death?
[/quote]

Why does it always have to be either or? Can the Calvinist not see the beauty of the script that God played out. The greatest injustice bringing about the greatest mercy? Why not just stand in awe of God's mercy rather than focus on the injustice. But of course there is justice. Would the Calvinist say that those involved in the injustice all went to heaven because Jesus prayed "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do"?

Edited August 26, 2009 by thessalonian

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='26 August 2009 - 01:31 PM' timestamp='1251304264' post='1956293']
Don't ya know your bible man. Don't ya have a search tool?

1Tim.2

1. [4] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1Tim.2
[/quote]

It sounded familiar, but a lot of things sound familiar. It wasn't clear if you were quoting a Calvinist theologian, Scripture, or omething else.


[quote name='thessalonian' date='26 August 2009 - 01:40 PM' timestamp='1251304838' post='1956298']
Why does it always have to be either or? Can the Calvinist not see the beauty of the script that God played out. The greatest injustice bringing about the greatest mercy? Why not just stand in awe of God's mercy rather than focus on the injustice. But of course there is justice. Would the Calvinist say that those involved in the injustice all went to heaven because Jesus prayed "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do"?
[/quote]

Yes, of course the Calvinist believer sees that. This is the point I was getting at: the only real injustice is the Crucifixion, and through it God purchases the justification of elected sinners purely by his grace. How can we argue with God, who is perfect in justice and mercy, over who is chosen or not chosen for an eternal reward?

The men who personally crucified and insulted Christ were forgiven for those sins, because that was Jesus' prayer. On that verse alone you can't determine that they went to heaven.

Edited August 26, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='26 August 2009 - 11:03 AM' timestamp='1251306222' post='1956317']
The men who personally crucified and insulted Christ were forgiven for those sins, because that was Jesus' prayer. On that verse alone you can't determine that they went to heaven.
[/quote]
For forgiveness to have effect it must be applied, and application requires not only the action of the one doing the forgiving but the repentance of the one being forgiven.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 August 2009 - 02:01 PM' timestamp='1251309712' post='1956377']
For forgiveness to have effect it must be applied, and application requires not only the action of the one doing the forgiving but the repentance of the one being forgiven.
[/quote]

Yes...... Jesus statement only showed that forgiveness was there for them.

[Groo the Wanderer]

Not sure why this discussion is so deep, but for my 2 cents,

I LOVE Calvin! and Hobbes too! especially the strips with the snowmen - what a hoot!

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 August 2009 - 03:01 PM' timestamp='1251309712' post='1956377']
For forgiveness to have effect it must be applied, and application requires not only the action of the one doing the forgiving but the repentance of the one being forgiven.
[/quote]

What about the words, "for they know not what they do"? How can repentance be required in cases of ignorance?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='28 August 2009 - 10:33 AM' timestamp='1251477215' post='1957218']
What about the words, "for they know not what they do"? How can repentance be required in cases of ignorance?
[/quote]
He expressed forgiveness, which is what we all must do, but for it to be effective repentance is required. Calvin failed to properly grasp the nature of the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice as opposed to its efficiency.

[Apotheoun]

Only invincible ignorance can lessen (but not necessarily remove) culpability, but one must be careful not to dogmatically turn invincible ignorance into a means of salvation.

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='24 August 2009 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1251141228' post='1955632']
That god is a monster. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/devil_suprised.gif[/img]
[/quote]


Unfortunately, Thessa, you are calling the God of the Bible a monster. "Unto you therefore who believe, He he precious....[but] to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient, whereunto also THEY WERE APPOINTED".
(1 Pet 2:7-8). "To you is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, BUT TO THEM IT IS NOT GIVEN" (Matt 13:11). It is apparently incomprehensible to you that God opens the eyes of some, but purposely closes the eyes of others.... but the Bible clearly teaches this in far too many places to list here. We MUST be satisfied that He has His own special reasons for this: "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight" (Matt 11:26). I suggest you get a hold of James White's, "The Potter's Freedom".

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 August 2009 - 01:01 PM' timestamp='1251309712' post='1956377']
For forgiveness to have effect it must be applied, and application requires not only the action of the one doing the forgiving but the repentance of the one being forgiven.
[/quote]


Wrong! Your mind simply cannot grasp the pervasiveness of the sovereignty of God, who is the one in fact, who GRANTS REPENTANCE... by opening the closed mind, as in, "Lydia...whose heart the Lord OPENED, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of by Paul.". "Then hath God also to the Gentiles GRANTED REPENTANCE unto life." (Ax 11:10).