Jan Hus

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='05 October 2009 - 11:01 AM' timestamp='1254758474' post='1978229']
Oropro,

I thought you went into hiding after I refuted you in three posts and you didn't respond. Unfortunately, you can't admit what even your own Catholic Church teaches; namely FORGIVENESS OF SINS MAY BE RECEIVED VIA THE MOUTH. Instead of admitting it, you try accusing me of deceit, but that attempt failed miserably. So I'm GRACIOUSLY answering you now because you wrote in asking the question, but no more (unless and UNTIL you can admit that I have read the Catechism correctly in #1393. The words are cyrstal clear and you very well know it). Furthermore, I didn't even mention any "screaming" scripture references in the above post. But when I do, or if I capitalize, it is so you will GO AND CHECK OUT THE FACTS FOR YOURSELF. There is so much erroneous information on this site, my adverse reaction is certainly warranted....that is, if I can provide the evidence. When Winchester for example, so pompously affirmed Christ had not told ANYONE to write even one line in the N.T., what do you think Jesus Christ thought of THAT? I happen to be there and corrected his shameful remark. So he says he has indeed picked up a Bible on occasion after I accused him, but after his now-famous drunken outbursts in the past, I can only assume the only reason he picked up a Bible recently was to place it under his gin and tonic and use it as a coaster.
[/quote]


What are you talking about? I did respond to your (edited and manipulated) quote from the Catechism and your response was that you were going to lurk elsewhere.

You have to read the quote in the context of the whole body of Catholic doctrine. Catholics believe that the Mass is the re-enactment of Calvary where Jesus shed his blood and gave his body up for our redemption. That is in no way saying that receiving Communion forgives sins "via the mouth". If Holy Communion forgives sin, stormstopper, can you please explain why a requirment for the proper reception of the Eucharist is to be in a state of grace?

Technically, even if the Church taught Holy Communion forgave our particular sins (which the Church does not), it would have no practical effect because no Catholic should have any mortal sin on his soul when receiving the Eucharist in the first place.

DO YOU GET THAT? I LEARNT THAT WHEN I WAS A LIL' SEVEN YEAR OLD AT GOOD OLD ST. PATTY'S PARISH CHURCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111!11oneone!!11

Edited October 6, 2009 by OraProMe

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='05 October 2009 - 04:12 PM' timestamp='1254773573' post='1978362']
My child.....the point was to incite the man to check things out before making such bogus claims about the Lord Jesus Christ. You take things far too literally.[/quote]
Do you think Evolution is a valid theory? Why or why not?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='05 October 2009 - 09:10 PM' timestamp='1254795015' post='1978788']
Do you think Evolution is a valid theory? Why or why not?
[/quote]

[i]Humani Generis[/i], 36

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='05 October 2009 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1254784399' post='1978555']
Dear His Child,

Or are you really? [/quote]

Oh man, you caught me. I actually worship Beelzebub. But only because it's such a cool name, mind you.

[quote]I am coming down hard on you [/quote]

...Where?

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Winchester' date='05 October 2009 - 06:33 PM' timestamp='1254789233' post='1978643']
The people who followed Hus were called Hussies.
[/quote]

WIN

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='05 October 2009 - 06:49 PM' timestamp='1254786581' post='1978594']
I would start with Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist as traditions that can be traced directly the apostolic age, though there are certainly many more I could name.
[/quote]

Rez....you completely misunderstand. Baptism is in the [u]Bible[/u] as well as is Holy Communion....so they certainly don't amount to these nebulous mystery traditions your church says should be on the same level as Scripture and should be considered a deposit of the faith....which was "ONCE" delivered to the saints according to the book of Jude. Confirmation, by the way, certainly is no where mentioned and neither do you have any proof that the apostles practiced it.

So after all the dust settles, you must admit that you cannot name one, oral, extrabiblical tradition demonstratively traceable to the apostalic age which is necessary for the faith and practice of the church. We affirm with the apostle, "believing all things which are written in the Law and in the prophets" (Acts 24:14)-- Case closed, as I don't want to go outside the boundaries of this thread, which I perhaps have already done.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='05 October 2009 - 11:12 PM' timestamp='1254802335' post='1978897']
Rez....you completely misunderstand. Baptism is in the [u]Bible[/u] as well as is Holy Communion....so they certainly don't amount to these nebulous mystery traditions your church says should be on the same level as Scripture and should be considered a deposit of the faith....which was "ONCE" delivered to the saints according to the book of Jude. Confirmation, by the way, certainly is no where mentioned and neither do you have any proof that the apostles practiced it. [/quote]

Orly?

"Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for He had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit." (Acts 8:14-17)

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='05 October 2009 - 11:12 PM' timestamp='1254802335' post='1978897']
So after all the dust settles, you must admit that you cannot name one, oral, extrabiblical tradition demonstratively traceable to the apostalic age which is necessary for the faith and practice of the church. We affirm with the apostle, "believing all things which are written in the Law and in the prophets" (Acts 24:14)-- Case closed, as I don't want to go outside the boundaries of this thread, which I perhaps have already done.
[/quote]

Yes, you have certainly gone outside the boundaries. I am not sure how any of this really relates to the execution of Jan Hus.

I can still think of numerous teachings handed down in Tradition. The fact that the Son is consubstantial to the Father would be one.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='05 October 2009 - 10:18 PM' timestamp='1254802704' post='1978904']Yes, you have certainly gone outside the boundaries. I am not sure how any of this really relates to the execution of Jan Hus.
[/quote]

I'm not sure more than 5 posts in this 10 page thread actually talk about the execution of Hus...

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='05 October 2009 - 11:23 PM' timestamp='1254803001' post='1978909']
I'm not sure more than 5 posts in this 10 page thread actually talk about the execution of Hus...
[/quote]

No doubt!

[picchick]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='05 October 2009 - 10:50 PM' timestamp='1254797412' post='1978823']
Oh man, you caught me. I actually worship Beelzebub. But only because it's such a cool name, mind you.

[/quote]

And I thought there was a debate on this already?

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='05 October 2009 - 09:09 PM' timestamp='1254794952' post='1978786']
What are you talking about? I did respond to your (edited and manipulated) quote from the Catechism and your response was that you were going to lurk elsewhere.

You have to read the quote in the context of the whole body of Catholic doctrine. Catholics believe that the Mass is the re-enactment of Calvary where Jesus shed his blood and gave his body up for our redemption. That is in no way saying that receiving Communion forgives sins "via the mouth". If Holy Communion forgives sin, stormstopper, can you please explain why a requirment for the proper reception of the Eucharist is to be in a state of grace?

Technically, even if the Church taught Holy Communion forgave our particular sins (which the Church does not), it would have no practical effect because no Catholic should have any mortal sin on his soul when receiving the Eucharist in the first place.

DO YOU GET THAT? I LEARNT THAT WHEN I WAS A LIL' SEVEN YEAR OLD AT GOOD OLD ST. PATTY'S PARISH CHURCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111!11oneone!!11
[/quote]

[color="#0000ff"]THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES THAT SINS CAN BE FORGIVEN VIA THE MOUTH!

"FOR THIS REASON, THE EUCHARIST CANNOT UNITE US TO CHRIST WITHOUT AT THE SAME TIME CLEANSING US FROM PAST SINS AND PRESERVING US FROM FUTURE SINS" (CCC #1393).
ST. AMBROSE CONFIRMS "THAT I SHOULD ALWAYS RECEIVE IT, SO THAT IT MAY ALWAYS FORGIVE MY SINS" (CCC #1393 and #1394).

In my opinion, Oropro should be banned from this site as he is completely misrepresenting the Catholic faith and refusing to believe words in their own catechism which even a 7 year old from St. Patty's could understand![/color]

[picchick]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='06 October 2009 - 12:42 AM' timestamp='1254804162' post='1978922']
[color="#0000ff"]THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES THAT SINS CAN BE FORGIVEN VIA THE MOUTH!

"FOR THIS REASON, THE EUCHARIST CANNOT UNITE US TO CHRIST WITHOUT AT THE SAME TIME CLEANSING US FROM PAST SINS AND PRESERVING US FROM FUTURE SINS" (CCC #1393).
ST. AMBROSE CONFIRMS "THAT I SHOULD ALWAYS RECEIVE IT, SO THAT IT MAY ALWAYS FORGIVE MY SINS" (CCC #1393 and #1394).

In my opinion, Oropro should be banned from this site as he is completely misrepresenting the Catholic faith and refusing to believe words in their own catechism which even a 7 year old from St. Patty's could understand![/color]
[/quote]

LOL!!!


OH MY GOSH!!!!

You, [i]honey[/i], are arrogant (a little softer than my previous word). You mean to tell me that you, an anti-Catholic....no Catholic HATER....has an opinion on who knows the faith and who doesn't? Wait wait...you mean that you, who don't believe in the Catholic faith can tell who is and who isn't a misrepresentation.


Wow....just....wow.

Edited October 6, 2009 by picchick

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='05 October 2009 - 10:42 PM' timestamp='1254804162' post='1978922']In my opinion[/quote]

oh what this site would look like if each of our opinions dictated how it should be run

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='05 October 2009 - 11:42 PM' timestamp='1254804162' post='1978922']
[color="#0000ff"]words in their own catechism which even a 7 year old from St. Patty's could understand![/color]
[/quote]

I'm a high school student who got a 99th percentile on the critical reading section of the PSAT, and I sometimes have trouble understanding what the [i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i] is saying.

[ardillacid]

I guess I always thought venial sins could be remitted through receiving the Eucharist, but one had to go to confession to have mortal sins forgiven.

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='05 October 2009 - 07:16 PM' timestamp='1254788161' post='1978619']
He said a bit more than "eat me."

John 6:48-67

[sup]48[/sup][b]I am the bread of life.[/b]

[sup]49[/sup]Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. [sup]

50[/sup]But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die.

[sup]51[/sup]Iam the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. [b]This bread is my flesh[/b], which I will give for the life of the world." [sup]

52[/sup]T[b]hen the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" [/b]

[sup]53[/sup][b]Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. [/b]

[sup]54[/sup]Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

[sup]55[/sup][b]For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. [/b]

[sup]56[/sup]Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

[sup]57[/sup]Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. [sup]
[/sup]
[sup]58[/sup]This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." [sup]

5[/sup][sup]9[/sup]He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

[sup]60[/sup][b]On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

[/b][sup]61[/sup][b]Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this scandalize you? [/b]

[sup]62[/sup]What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

[sup]63[/sup]The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[sup][[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%206#fen-NIV-26310e"]e[/url]][/sup] and they are life.

[sup]64[/sup]Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

[sup]65[/sup]He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

[sup]66[/sup][b]From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.[/b]

[sup]67[/sup]"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.


[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%206"]http://www.biblegate...search=john%206[/url]



Note that when the Jews were shocked and questioned what he said, Jesus did not say, "Whoah, you're misreading me, guys, don't jump the gun!" And when his own disciples said, "This is a hard saying: how can anyone accept it?" and walked away, he didn't call after them, "Hey, fellows, don't go! It was only a [i]metaphor.[/i] What I meant by 'my flesh' was really 'the substance of what I'm saying,' you dig?" No. He said, "Does this scandalize you?" Then he let them go. He and they both knew what he meant, and he let them go without giving the slightest hint that there was any misunderstanding.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Stern,

If you go to the thread in the debate forum, "Transubstantiation: Unsubstantiated", you will find my essay on that topic which deals with every one of your objections. As for your last paragraph, the same old argument has been answered ad nauseum down through the centuries to Catholics who refuse to read their Bibles but simply believe what comes out of a priests mouth without checking what GOD has to say on the matter. So I'll paste it again:

_________________________________________________________________________________

[font="Arial"][size="2"] I am flabbergasted beyond measure that Catholics continue forever and forever asking the same old same old: WHY DIDN'T JESUS CALL THEM BACK? ANSWER: He was under no obligation to! God said He would purposely, willfully and sovereignly BLIND the eyes of those whom He would. When Jesus said He could build the temple in only 3 days---and his audience scoffed at Him, did the Lord say, HEY WAIT! THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEANT! No, He did not. I am proposing to you that is precisely the case in John 6.
As to your comment, that Jesus was speaking PLAINLY----um, why then in John 10:24 did they ask Him, "If thou be the Christ, TELL US PLAINLY?" Obviously, Jesus DID NOT always speak plainly "because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, [i]but to them it is not given." [/i](Matt 13:11).

[/size][/font][font="Arial"][size="2"]It was the intentional will of God to withhold the mysteries of the kingdom to many for His own good reasons and John 6 is another pristine example {Isa 6:9, Matt 11:25, Mk 4:11-12, Luke 8:10, John 9:39-41, Rms 11:8}.

You asked, "Tell me then, why did the people leave Jesus when He repeated what He said?"


I would be delighted to tell you. Verse 65 reads, "And He was saying, 'Because of this I said unto you that no one is able to come to me except it is given to him by the Father".
Coming to Christ is not something that is the result of persuasive speaking, and only God has the ability to open our eyes of understanding, as He did to Peter, telling Him that flesh and blood had not revealed to Him the truth of Christ's identity, but the Father had. And obviously, Jesus was the greatest orator of all time, yet as we read in verse 66, many "went away from following Him and no longer walked with Him". The operative factor of the Father was missing. In context, these people went away, not because of Jesus' words about eating His flesh, but because He asserted that it is simply not possible for anyone to come to Him unless the Father enables him. What caused them to abandon ship was the proclamation of the absolute sovereingnty of God and the inability of man. The text specifically says, [u]"Because of this, many of His disciples went away".
[/u][/size][/font]
"BECAUSE OF THIS!"

[picchick]

I am sorry, I am still in shock by the gall that this guy has. Forget the topic thread...

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='06 October 2009 - 12:48 AM' timestamp='1254804486' post='1978925']
I'm a high school student who got a 99th percentile on the critical reading section of the PSAT, and I sometimes have trouble understanding what the [i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i] is saying.
[/quote]
Rexi....you just don't understand! You not as enlightened as Stormstopper! Being as you are in the Catholic Church....*tsk tsk* on you.


[quote name='notardillacid' date='06 October 2009 - 12:49 AM' timestamp='1254804598' post='1978926']
I guess I always thought venial sins could be remitted through receiving the Eucharist, but one had to go to confession to have mortal sins forgiven. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Yes. That is what the Catechism teaches. Who wants me to quote it?

[picchick]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='06 October 2009 - 12:51 AM' timestamp='1254804669' post='1978927']

"BECAUSE OF THIS!"


[/quote]

YELL LOUDER!!!!!! EMPHASIZE MORE!!! IT IS OBVIOUS THAT THE BIGGER THE CAPS THE MORE WE WILL GET THE MESSAGE!!!!

[ardillacid]

[quote name='picchick' date='06 October 2009 - 12:51 AM' timestamp='1254804713' post='1978929']
I am sorry, I am still in shock by the gall that this guy has. Forget the topic thread...


Rexi....you just don't understand! You not as enlightened as Stormstopper! Being as you are in the Catholic Church....*tsk tsk* on you.




Yes. That is what the Catechism teaches. Who wants me to quote it?
[/quote]
WOOHOO I'M NOT A HERETIC!

[Vincent Vega]

[size="7"]I CAN RITE BIGER THAN THE POP! MEANS THAT I'M BETER CATLOK![/size]