srmariam Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 [quote name='truthfinder' timestamp='1339021940' post='2441933'] Hi Sr. Mariam, could you give a reference to this, as I have never heard of it. I have seen historical sketches which also indicate Carmels using wedding dresses, so if it is an abuse, it has been going on for a long time. [/quote] It was used in the past, but has been out of use since shortly before V2. I don't have the paperwork here to be exact with the wording, but the Rite of Religious Profession for Discalced Carmelite Nuns (which includes Clothing ceremony) states very plainly that the ceremony must take place in Chapter or Choir with just the community present, it must never be within Mass and no priest must be present. The postulant must enter the room already dressed in the tunic, belt, collar/tocque, scapular and white veil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 [quote name='srmariam' timestamp='1339022431' post='2441942'] It was used in the past, but has been out of use since shortly before V2. I don't have the paperwork here to be exact with the wording, but the Rite of Religious Profession for Discalced Carmelite Nuns (which includes Clothing ceremony) states very plainly that the ceremony must take place in Chapter or Choir with just the community present, it must never be within Mass and no priest must be present. The postulant must enter the room already dressed in the tunic, belt, collar/tocque, scapular and white veil. [/quote] Okay thanks. Another question: could this be due to different constitutions 1990 vs. 1991? I think I saw one Calced community use the wedding dress a first vows, would this be a possibility too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srmariam Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 [quote name='truthfinder' timestamp='1339022812' post='2441947'] Okay thanks. Another question: could this be due to different constitutions 1990 vs. 1991? I think I saw one Calced community use the wedding dress a first vows, would this be a possibility too? [/quote] I really don't know about the OCarm so I cannot comment. I believe the Rite is the same for both 1990 and 1991, certainly we never used dresses in the 1990 I was in (even the years before 1990 when we lived by odd adaptations of constitutions!). As 1990 live by one of St Teresa's early adaptations of her first constitutions (not the original as many claim, but slightly later ones) and try to be as authentic to her life as possible I would expect they would avoid showy Clothing ceremonies as she did not allow them, although they do now have profession publicly which she was also very against. I will try to find the book in the morning and check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 [quote name='srmariam' timestamp='1339023272' post='2441953'] I really don't know about the OCarm so I cannot comment. I believe the Rite is the same for both 1990 and 1991, certainly we never used dresses in the 1990 I was in (even the years before 1990 when we lived by odd adaptations of constitutions!). As 1990 live by one of St Teresa's early adaptations of her first constitutions (not the original as many claim, but slightly later ones) and try to be as authentic to her life as possible I would expect they would avoid showy Clothing ceremonies as she did not allow them, although they do now have profession publicly which she was also very against. I will try to find the book in the morning and check. [/quote] Thanks so much. I never understood part of Story of a Soul when talking about private final vows and then later public veiling. I almost wish it would come back - it seems very much more to be in the spirit of Carmel, but maybe it has to do with the more modern notion of a public "permanent" vow being very public. Only my musing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srmariam Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 [quote name='truthfinder' timestamp='1339036448' post='2442041'] Thanks so much. I never understood part of Story of a Soul when talking about private final vows and then later public veiling. I almost wish it would come back - it seems very much more to be in the spirit of Carmel, but maybe it has to do with the more modern notion of a public "permanent" vow being very public. Only my musing... [/quote] The Church has asked that vows, particularly Solemn/perpetual vows, be public. Also, the ecstasies that made St Teresa want them private tend not to happen now - she made the rule after one sister went into an 8hr ecstasy on her profession day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InPersonaChriste Posted June 7, 2012 Author Share Posted June 7, 2012 More investiture photo's from Benedictines of Mary. 2005 I might add though. http://www.flickr.com/photos/slag02/2164619037/in/set-72157603625678242/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awyers Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I think this whole thread started with a question about the Adorers and the American postulant. Not sure if anyone answered as there were way too many posts to catch up on at 1am but no, she did not stay but is doing great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srmariam Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 [quote name='truthfinder' timestamp='1339022812' post='2441947'] Okay thanks. Another question: could this be due to different constitutions 1990 vs. 1991? I think I saw one Calced community use the wedding dress a first vows, would this be a possibility too? [/quote] I have managed to check now and the rules were put in place in 1984 and still stand for both 1990 and 1991 constitutions. The wording in the introduction to the book states 'The noviciate, a time of testing for both novice and community, is the first stage of life in the institute. Entry to the noviciate should be marked by a rite in which God's grace is sought for the purpose of the period. The rite should be restrained and simple, celebrated in the presence of only the religious community. It should take place outside of Mass.' Later for nuns it specifies its forbidden to be in Mass and says it must also highlight that no commitment is being made at this point and the novice's freedom of choice must not be diminished. The only actually giving of garments during the ceremony itself is of the mantle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 (edited) [quote name='srmariam' timestamp='1339074249' post='2442137'] I have managed to check now and the rules were put in place in 1984 and still stand for both 1990 and 1991 constitutions. The wording in the introduction to the book states 'The noviciate, a time of testing for both novice and community, is the first stage of life in the institute. Entry to the noviciate should be marked by a rite in which God's grace is sought for the purpose of the period. The rite should be restrained and simple, celebrated in the presence of only the religious community. It should take place outside of Mass.' Later for nuns it specifies its forbidden to be in Mass and says it must also highlight that no commitment is being made at this point and the novice's freedom of choice must not be diminished. The only actually giving of garments during the ceremony itself is of the mantle. [/quote] I am pretty sure different Carmels can use different Rituals/Ceremonials. I have been to a clothing ceremony at a 1990 Carmel and it was almost exactly like the one in the St. Teresa of the Andes movie .. the cincture, scapular and mantle where all given to the nun with the same wording as in the movie and it was done in public (behind the grille in the nuns' choir) I have the ceremonial from the 1930's which has this formula. I believe it is up to each Carmel what ceremonial they use. I have heard from a friend that Iron Mountain Carmel published their own Ceremonial (after VII) that many Carmels (but not all) use today. So it seems to be up to each one. Where is the one you have from 1984 published? That is interesting what you say about the wedding dresses .. I had never heard it. I've just known that it's been a custom in Carmel for many years. It's not in the ceremonial I have, so it was probably something just added on to that.. but I doubt it is being disobedient to the Order or Church to use it p.s. I wonder if some of these ceremonial differences coincide with the French/Spanish custom thing (although I know the wedding dresses were a big thing in France for a while there, with a ceremony where they left the enclosure and re-entered too).. as I remember hearing at a French US Carmel that the clothing ceremony was entirely private, whereas the one I attended was a Spanish US Carmel (both 1990) Hmm .. Edited June 7, 2012 by Chiquitunga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 [img]http://i46.tinypic.com/1rxd78.jpg[/img] Just ran into this [url="http://econtent.unm.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=%2Facpa&CISOPTR=8838&DMSCALE=100&DMWIDTH=600&DMHEIGHT=600&DMMODE=viewer&DMFULL=1&DMX=0&DMY=0&DMTEXT=&DMTHUMB=1&REC=1&DMROTATE=0&x=217&y=120"]here[/url] .. a picture from Santa Fe Carmel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maximillion Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Mother Catherinespeaks of wearing a wedding dress to her clothing in Carmel. My Beloved, pg 119. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 [quote name='srmariam' timestamp='1339074249' post='2442137'] I have managed to check now and the rules were put in place in 1984 and still stand for both 1990 and 1991 constitutions. The wording in the introduction to the book states 'The noviciate, a time of testing for both novice and community, is the first stage of life in the institute. Entry to the noviciate should be marked by a rite in which God's grace is sought for the purpose of the period. The rite should be restrained and simple, celebrated in the presence of only the religious community. It should take place outside of Mass.' Later for nuns it specifies its forbidden to be in Mass and says it must also highlight that no commitment is being made at this point and the novice's freedom of choice must not be diminished. The only actually giving of garments during the ceremony itself is of the mantle. [/quote] I'm quite ignorant of a lot of things related to Religious life, so I could be way off here, and I'm genuinely wondering, is the clothing/entrance into the novitiate the same time as the first vows? I know my sister (she is a Nashville Dominican) was clothed last year, and that ceremony was private. However, vows are this year, and that is what they consider their "wedding day" (they don't wear wedding dresses, though). In Carmels are they the same thing? Or am I totally misunderstanding this entirely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maximillion Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Clothing is when you receive the Holy Habit, it marks the end of the Postulancy and the start of your life as a nun or sister, and the start of your more formal training. Vows come later....how much later varies from community to community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ChristopherM Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) [quote name='InPersonaChriste' timestamp='1339044302' post='2442076'] More investiture photo's from Benedictines of Mary. 2005 I might add though. [url="http://www.flickr.com/photos/slag02/2164619037/in/set-72157603625678242/"]http://www.flickr.co...57603625678242/[/url] [/quote] Thanks so much for sharing my Photos from that event. Just a quick correction it was actually in 2007 Such a beautiful Mass and Ceremony. I pray for those discerning a vocation. God Bless You can check out my blog here if you like: http://www.lostlambs.net Edited June 8, 2012 by ChristopherM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 http://www.ourladyoffidelity.org.uk/ :smile4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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