Was I Better Off Back Then?

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='mulls' post='1107808' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:21 PM']
i see. you have a point. i was using hyperbole for effect. i reject the vast majority of things catholic.
[/quote]Like the Trinity...the Canon of the New Testament...the Redemption of mankind brought about by Christ dying on the Cross? That kind of stuff?

[Justified Saint]

Couldn't have put it better myself, Mateo

[mulls]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1107813' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:22 PM']
Mulls,
Maybe it's my age thing, and I have lot's more life to look back at. Not all of our reactions to grace are powerfull. You know there are lot's of Christians that are solid and quiet. I have as little doubt about grace in sacraments as grace in solid preaching. As you well know, what we can ignore one day, can obsess us the next.
Without a doubt, you reacted strongly to the grace in the one church, and did not react much to the grace in the catholic church. Many times, how we react to grace is affected by our environment, who we are with, what our situation is at the time. Can you say you would have reacted the same if that preacher you heard was talking at a beer bash, instead of a church service?
[/quote]

i hate hypotheticals. but honestly, really honestly, yes, i believe i would have reacted the same. i can visualize myself at a beer bash (that's what i did at the time), and i would have been delighted to hear something different then the shallow nonsense that i surrounded myself with (it wasn't who i really was, but i ignored it because i was cool). i was so enraptured by the Word on that morning, so captivated by it's reality, that i didn't care who was around me or who was looking....i was to give my life to the Lord on that day, because that is how God spoke to me, through His Word. coulda been anywhere, i believe.

i mean, my best friend was sitting next to me. we debated about things over the previous things. i was happy as a catholic (so i thought). so for me to lay down my will that morning, meant to admit to John that he was telling me the truth, and i was wrong. who wants to admit to their best friend that you were wrong and he was right? and to GOD no less?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Karl Adam, [u]The Spirit of Catholicism[/u]:
[quote]Primarily, therefore, and "in actu primo," grace is a free gift and favor, a thing already guaranteed by the sacramental act apart from all personal effort. But whether I shall effectively grasp this grace which is thus provided and profit by it, that is to say, whether it will set up in me the state of justification or perfect that state, that depends on the earnestness with which I have opened my soul to the grace offered me and prepared myself for the reception of the sacrament. Therefore the Catholic conception of a sacrament, so far as regards the personal appropriation of the sacramental grace, presupposes the ethico-religious co-operation of the recipient.[/quote]
[b]WARNING: Weird metaphor follows![/b]
I think that receiving the sacraments is somewhat like drinking spiritual protein shakes. If we work out while using them, we get stronger than we would have otherwise. If we drink the shake and don't exercise, they just make us fat like everything else. They provide food value - the grace is definitely there - but they do not strengthen us as much as they would have.

[mulls]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1107820' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:25 PM']
Like the Trinity...the Canon of the New Testament...the Redemption of mankind brought about by Christ dying on the Cross? That kind of stuff?
[/quote]

no. you know darn well what kind of stuff. let's not go there on this thread. :

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1107776' date='Nov 1 2006, 07:02 PM']
Micah, that's not true. You cling to one interpretation of everything Jesus said. In fact, considering the ADDITION of the filioque, I would say Catholicism is a branch off of the real thing.
[/quote]
It is true. We cling to everything Jesus said. I'm sorry you don't believe that, but it's true. He left us the Church to attest to that fact.

As for the addition of the filioque...did we somehow change theology on the Trinity? No. We merely defined something that needed defining.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1107842' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:34 PM']
It is true. We cling to everything Jesus said. I'm sorry you don't believe that, but it's true. He left us the Church to attest to that fact.

As for the addition of the filioque...did we somehow change theology on the Trinity? No. We merely defined something that needed defining.
[/quote]

It's not really worth debating but...I'm sorry you can't see it.

[mulls]

[quote name='thedude' post='1107837' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:31 PM']
Karl Adam, [u]The Spirit of Catholicism[/u]:

[b]WARNING: Weird metaphor follows![/b]
I think that receiving the sacraments is somewhat like drinking spiritual protein shakes. If we work out while using them, we get stronger than we would have otherwise. If we drink the shake and don't exercise, they just make us fat like everything else. They provide food value - the grace is definitely there - but they do not strengthen us as much as they would have.
[/quote]

thing is, it didn't have an effect. i needed a personal trainer. i needed instruction. that was God's Word for me. that's what i didn't get at mass.

[b]if [/b] (and i'm not conceding the efficacy of sacraments, i just don't feel like arguing about it here) in my life sacramental grace was like protein shakes, then the preaching of the Word of God was like anabolic steroids, delivered from the pulpit by Victor Conte himself, in the weight room of Balco headquarters.



now THAT was a nice metaphor, i hope there's enough sports lovers to get it.

Edited November 1, 2006 by mulls

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1107845' date='Nov 1 2006, 07:36 PM']
It's not really worth debating but...I'm sorry you can't see it.
[/quote]
Uh huh. Cop-out.

[Balthazor]

I know what you are talking about mulls. Sometimes the faith is not lways presented in the best light, and it is a turn off. For example here all the churches are huge and Baroque in style....for me it is just too much. The suroundings for me were so distracting that I had a hard time wanting to go to mass and when I was there concentrating on it. But now I found this tiny little Chapel where they have mass on Saturday night and it is so much more intimate and nicer. I know it sounds Shallow, but the crowd is different,a nd the surroundings are different, even though the mass is the same....and it helps.

I hope you find God where you can, because there are so many people that are out there that have no clue at all and do not search. But if you ever want to come back to Catholicism I will save you a seat next to me at mass . I hope you come back to the church, I pray that you will, but I am happy that you have some of the faith, even if not what we know as "the fullness of the Faith".

[Katholikos]

Well, here's my take:

Jesus founded a Church and the Brethren (or the AOG, or the XYZ) ain't it. He endowed His Church with certain gifts called Sacraments to help me get to heaven. It seems obvious to me that since Jesus founded the Catholic Church, He intends for me to belong to it, and not to a rival church founded by someone else that doesn't have His gifts and consequently can't impart them to me. I have refused His gifts, told Him, "no thank you." Whatever I may perceive her deficiencies to be, she's still Christ's only Church. Christ expects me to stay and contribute to the betterment of the Church rather than leaving her. If I feel I'm a better Christian in another Church, it means I didn't put in the effort I should have while I was Catholic. You can't love what you don't know.
-----------------------------------------
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

Edited November 1, 2006 by Katholikos

[Anomaly]

[quote name='mulls' post='1107849' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:37 PM']
thing is, it didn't having an effect. i needed a personal trainer. i needed instruction. that was God's Word for me. that's what i didn't get at mass.

[b]if [/b] (and i'm not conceding the efficacy of sacraments, i just don't feel like arguing about it here) in my life sacramental grace is like protein shakes, then the preaching of the Word of God was like anabolic steroids, delivered from the pulpit by Victor Conte himself, in the weight room of Balco headquarters.
now THAT was a nice metaphor, i hope there's enough sports lovers to get it.
[/quote]
Well, I don't get what you are saying, then. I thought I understood you as saying that grace was not to be found in the Catholic Church and in the Sacraments. I'm making the argument that it is, amongst other places and churches. I would qualify that statement that the Catholics make it easy and normal to take those graces for granted.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='mulls' post='1107849' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:37 PM']
thing is, it didn't have an effect. i needed a personal trainer. i needed instruction. that was God's Word for me. that's what i didn't get at mass.

[b]if [/b] (and i'm not conceding the efficacy of sacraments, i just don't feel like arguing about it here) in my life sacramental grace was like protein shakes, then the preaching of the Word of God was like anabolic steroids, delivered from the pulpit by Victor Conte himself, in the weight room of Balco headquarters.
now THAT was a nice metaphor, i hope there's enough sports lovers to get it.
[/quote]

Be careful with the protein shakes mulls - they can make you fat if you aren't careful.

[quote name='Raphael' post='1107852' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:38 PM']
Uh huh. Cop-out.
[/quote]

I'm afraid not. I just don't particularly like beating my head against walls - a sensation very much akin to trying to get a person to believe that his faith is subjective. So, sorry to disappoint.

[mulls]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1107863' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:41 PM']
Well, I don't get what you are saying, then. [u]I thought I understood you as saying that grace was not to be found in the Catholic Church and in the Sacraments[/u]. I'm making the argument that it is, amongst other places and churches. I would qualify that statement that the Catholics make it easy and normal to take those graces for granted.
[/quote]


no, i think you got me right. which statement was ambiguous?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1107869' date='Nov 1 2006, 07:44 PM']
I'm afraid not. I just don't particularly like beating my head against walls - a sensation very much akin to trying to get a person to believe that his faith is subjective. So, sorry to disappoint.
[/quote]
Truth is not subjective. When did philosophers begin to replace common sense with the idolatry of ideology?