Was I Better Off Back Then?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='mulls' post='1107873' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:45 PM']
no, i think you got me right. which statement was ambiguous?
[/quote]
So you are saying that there is insufficient grace in Sacraments (if they have grace) and the Catholic Church as a whole?


edit to add:

I just don't see grace ever over-riding our free will. Grace enables us to change, but never forces us to change.

Edited November 1, 2006 by Anomaly

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1107877' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:47 PM']
Truth is not subjective. When did philosophers begin to replace common sense with the idolatry of ideology?
[/quote]

I'm not a big fan of philosophers actually, Micah. They never test anything. They never come to any stunning conclusions. The whole field is a big waste of time and effort really. Truth isn't subjective or objective - it doesn't exist.

[mulls]

[quote]So you are saying that there is insufficient grace in Sacraments (if they have grace) and the Catholic Church as a whole?[/quote]

i don't know about the term "insufficient grace." does God give grace that is insufficient?

i would say either grace or no grace with the sacraments. i believe no grace (to be black and white. i have other thoughts for later).

for argument's sake, i'm saying that if there actually is grace in the sacraments, it had no effect on me. it was unrecognizable. it's not like i chose to ignore it...if it was there, i didn't know it. hmm....i guess this would have to be called 'insufficient' then. probably because there was nothing behind it...no direction, no "you received grace, now this is what you can do with it....."

i'm contrasting that to the preaching of the Word, in which the grace was overwhelmingly apparent, drawing me to faith and repentance. i recognized it and experienced it, and accepted it. i also could have rejected it. but only because i knew it was there.

make sense, i hope?

Edited November 1, 2006 by mulls

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1107882' date='Nov 1 2006, 07:50 PM']
I'm not a big fan of philosophers actually, Micah. They never test anything. They never come to any stunning conclusions. The whole field is a big waste of time and effort really. Truth isn't subjective or objective - it doesn't exist.
[/quote]
Well then that's quite silly. Did you come to that stunning conclusion with tests? How does one prove that truth doesn't exist and, perhaps more importantly, would that conclusion be a truth?

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1107888' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:53 PM']
Well then that's quite silly. Did you come to that stunning conclusion with tests? How does one prove that truth doesn't exist and, perhaps more importantly, would that conclusion be a truth?
[/quote]

I'm not going to be drawn into an epistemological argument with you. I despite epistemology. I've said I don't wish to purse the matter further, and I'm not going to. If you think that's a cop out, then you're quite free to feel that way.

[Budge]

What is odd to me, is a ex-Catholic can describe their life in the most apostate New-Age infiltrated Catholic church, mulls, and the Catholics will be upset that they left rather then remaining to imbide spiritual poison.

One Catholic touched on an honest point here..

[quote]Why Catholics Leave

Most are seeking a fuller experience of Christ.

By Ralph Martin - Our Sunday Visitor

Through my involvement in the Catholic charismatic renewal, I have frequent contact with many Protestant charismatic churches and movements. I am struck by the significant numbers of ex­Catholics I have encountered in Assembly of God churches, the Full Gospel Business Men's Fellowship International, independent Christian centers, or Hispanic Protestant churches in the Southwest.

As a lifelong and convinced Catholic, I feel disappointment when I hear of Catholics leaving our church. When I have an opportunity, I explain to them why they should stay. I believe, as the church teaches, that the one church founded by Christ subsists in the Catholic Church: "This is the sole church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care (John 21:17), commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it (see Matt. 28:18) , and which he raised up for all ages as 'the pillar and mainstay of the truth' (1 Tim. 3:15). This church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him" (Lumen Gentium 8) .

I believe also, as the church teaches, that Catholics who, believing the true church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church and who nevertheless leave it, place their salvation in jeopardy: "Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it" (Lumen Gentium 14).

But while I am troubled by Catholics leaving the Catholic Church, I am also troubled by some of the responses to this that I frequently hear.

One common response is to blame Protestants for evangelizing Catholics. Another response is to bemoan the loss of the riches of the Catholic tradition that these ex­Catholics experience by embracing what Catholics consider to be an inferior theology and ecclesiology.


While "underhanded" means of evangelizing are not unknown, most of these ex­Catholics were not lured by such means. In most cases, they met coworkers, friends, home visitors, neighbors, or a preacher at a church service or revival who offered them a fuller experience of Christ and a more personal connection in their lives with him than they were experiencing in the Catholic Church. Many talk as if they've encountered the Lord himself for the first time.

While Catholic tradition is indeed rich, the fact is that many Catholics' normal experience of their church is as a rather weak and impersonal institution rather than as a place where they can encounter life with the risen Lord, life in the Holy Spirit, the love of the brothers, and a sense of mission. Even more disturbing is the fact that so many Catholics have found the Catholic institutions they have contact with-whether it be a parish or a Catholic school or university-to be places where faith and morality are weakened rather than strengthened. The crisis of truth in the Catholic Church and the subsequent undermining of faith, morality, and mission that I wrote about in 1982 in my book, A Crisis of Truth, are still with us in devastating ways.

For example, when Cardinal John O'Connor of New York recently spoke with the press about the rite of exorcism and his pastoral concerns about the need to free people from satanic bondage, the chairman of the theology department at the University of Notre Dame responded by calling the notion of a personal devil "premodern and precritical."

In my work with radio and television, I receive thousands of letters from anguished Catholics who are not hearing the gospel preached in their parishes but rather a confused, ambiguous message that tends to undermine faith, morality, and mission. Many Catholic parents have told me of sacrificing to send their children to Catholic schools and colleges, only to have the children's faith and morality weakened by their attendance there.

Some Catholics do leave the Catholic Church because they are rejecting God, Christ, and his will for human life. In these cases sin and immorality are often involved. Many Catholics today, though, are apparently leaving the Catholic Church because they are not finding Christ there, nor any support for living a truly Christian life.

While there is an appropriate pride to take in our heritage as Catholics, there is also an inappropriate pride and arrogance that is blind to the actual condition of Catholicism. Catholic theology-on the books and in documents-can be great, but Catholic practice can be an abomination to the Lord and a scandal to the "little ones": "You keep saying, 1 am so rich and secure that I want for nothing.' Little do you realize how wretched you are, how pitiable and poor, how blind and naked!" (Rev. 3:17).

It reminds me of the pride of the Israelites in being the chosen people and having the correct and privileged way of worshipping in the temple, the pride of the nation-all true-but a pride­filled blindness, as the prophet Jeremiah pointed out: "The following message came to Jeremiah from the Lord: Stand at the gate of the house of the Lord, and there proclaim this message: Hear the word of the Lord, all you of Judah, who enter these gates to worship the Lord! Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Reform your ways and your deeds, so that I may remain with you in this place. Put not your trust in the deceitful words: 'This is the temple of the Lord! The temple of the Lord! The temple of the Lord!' Only if you reform your ways and your deeds...will I remain with you in this place, in the land which I gave your fathers long ago and forever" (Jer. 7:1­7).

[b]Pride in the temple-the Catholic Church-can blind us to the gap between Catholic theory and practice, and cause us to blame Protestants for Catholics leaving the Catholic Church. The most useful response is, rather, to examine our own consciences as Catholics as to whether we are living in that union with Christ that allows others to encounter him in us. [u]As hard as it may be to face, many Catholics who have left the Catholic Church to become part of a vital Protestant congregation may have gone to hell if they stayed, unconverted and with virtually no Christian support, in the Catholic Church. [/u] In actual practice many millions of Catholics are being led away from Christ by the corruption of faith and morality encountered in many Catholic institutions today, or by the emptiness, lack of power, and lack of God's presence that leave Catholics sitting ducks to be swept away by contemporary pagan culture.

The phenomenon of large numbers of Catholics leaving the Catholic Church because they haven't found Christ there or support for their Christian lives or families should humble us and cause us to turn to the Lord in repentance and in seeking God, asking him to have mercy on us and to pour out his Spirit on us so that men, women, and children may encounter him in our midst.[/b]

Ecclesia semper reformanda. The church is always in need of renewal. There is always a need to return to the stark simplicity of the Upper Room to face God, to seek him, to wait for him, to be satisfied with nothing less than the promise of the Father.

As Archbishop Robert Sanchez of Santa Fe, New Mexico, said recently in discussing the exodus of Catholics from the Catholic Church as a result of Protestant proselytizing, "Perhaps we should regard this challenging phenomenon not as a threat but rather as a catalyst which has succeeded in capturing our attention and thus turned us away from our indifference and false satisfaction."

Or, as a recent Vatican report on the problem stated, "The church is often seen simply as an institution, perhaps because it gives too much importance to structures and not enough to drawing people to God in Christ."

Come Lord Jesus, come Holy Spirit, and renew your church so that we may be a sacrament of your holy presence to the world!

Copyright 1990, Our Sunday Visitor.[/quote]

I'll repeat the underlined part again...
[u]As hard as it may be to face, many Catholics who have left the Catholic Church to become part of a vital Protestant congregation may have gone to hell if they stayed, unconverted and with virtually no Christian support, in the Catholic Church. [/u]

[Balthazor]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' post='1107882' date='Nov 1 2006, 04:50 PM']
I'm not a big fan of philosophers actually, Micah. They never test anything. They never come to any stunning conclusions. The whole field is a big waste of time and effort really. Truth isn't subjective or objective - it doesn't exist.
[/quote]

If I thought that way then I could not even beleive in God because in all of my experiments I have never been able to prove he exists....

If you have an experiment that does though please send it too me, I could use it for my Master's Thesis.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='mulls' post='1107884' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:52 PM']
i don't know about the term "insufficient grace." does God give grace that is insufficient?

i would say either grace or no grace with the sacraments.

for argument's sake, i'm saying that if there actually is grace in the sacraments, it had no effect on me. it was unrecognizable. it's not like i chose to ignore it...if it was there, i didn't know it.

i'm contrasting that to the preaching of the Word, in which the grace was overwhelmingly apparent, drawing me to faith and repentance. i recognized it and experienced it, and accepted it. i also could have rejected it. but only because i knew it was there.

make sense, i hope?
[/quote]Makes sense. I would also say that grace kept me from going off the cliff many, many, times (figuratively speaking, I live in florida), while I was a practicing Catholic. I have been moved to repentance, changed my life, stayed on a good path, have a great marriage and fantastic kids. I no longer go to the Catholic Church (or any Church) because I find most religious organizations destructive, more intent on proving themselves right instead of helping each other live right.

[Budge]

[quote]I went back the next week, heard another gospel message, and gave my life to Christ. My eyes were opened. I didn't realize that I had been offending God my whole live by how I lived, and I was so so grateful for what Christ did for me, and I turned my will over to His that morning. I was also shocked that I never heard anything like this during my 19 years of church-going.[/quote]

See my post above mulls.

I agree, many of us ex-s have been through that experience.

My life totally changed after becoming a Christian.

[quote]So my question is, was I better off as a church-going Catholic, being obedient to the only thing I knew (go to mass and believe in God) who lived a hypocritical, sinful lifestyle the other 6 days a week, or am I better off now, a born-again Christian, walking with the Lord as my number one priority in life, but having rejected everything Catholic?[/quote]

you are far better off as a born-again Christian with your name now written in the book of life!

Praise God!

[Balthazor]

He was already a Christian budge.
I am really hurt that you do not consider Catholicism Christianity.

I dont consider protestants and orthodox to be non-Christian...why do you think that Catholics are not?

[mulls]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1107897' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:57 PM']
Makes sense. I would also say that grace kept me from going off the cliff many, many, times (figuratively speaking, I live in florida), while I was a practicing Catholic. I have been moved to repentance, changed my life, stayed on a good path, have a great marriage and fantastic kids. I no longer go to the Catholic Church (or any Church) because I find most religious organizations destructive, more intent on proving themselves right instead of helping each other live right.
[/quote]

cool. i'm encouraged that that makes sense.

ok, so you've experienced grace, it has actually played out in your life in the past. but now....should i take you saying you don't go to church, to mean that you no longer believe?

to that i would say, the grace you received (if indeed it was actually God's grace), was an end unto itself....it helped you at the time, but now....?

i know the grace that i received when laid down my life before the Lord, through the preaching of the Word, was a means....the end being God Himself. i know that the grace i received, drawing me to faith and repentance, led to an eternal change, going from a child of wrath to a child of God. that's grace that i can never give back.

now, the grace i receive through obedience, prayer, etc., i can choose to do things with. i can become more intimate with the Lord, or stray away.

i know i know, now i'm taking eternal security, osas, whatever. but i'm trying to make the grace distinction more clear. i really want to hear your thoughts, how grace plays, or doesn't play, out in your life now.

[Budge]

[quote]for argument's sake, i'm saying that if there actually is grace in the sacraments, it had no effect on me. it was unrecognizable. it's not like i chose to ignore it...if it was there, i didn't know it.[/quote]

I have found much more of God's grace even daily in learning his Word, I just completed an amazing bible study, then I did in any sacraments, which seem to be all memorized rite and dead.

Catholic sacraments to me are dead, ritual and rites, that when I was young caused me more hours of boredom rather then true encounters with God. When a Christian becomes saved and has the Holy Spirit indwelling and prays and lays hands on for healing for fellow Christians, and shares Christian fellowship, Catholic sacraments pale by FAR. Living as a Christian is an amazing wonderful thing, and for me it is not a Sunday morning only affair.

I feel the power of the Holy Spirit and God's grace daily when I pray, when I study God's Word, and I never felt that within the Catholic Church. I have seen God's grace among the body of Christ even to the point of bringing me to tears of happiness. I am sure some will blame me, you were a bad Catholic, but then you know why I believe that was so...

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1107907' date='Nov 1 2006, 08:07 PM']
I have found much more of God's grace even daily in learning his Word, I just completed an amazing bible study, then I did in any sacraments, which seem to be all memorized rite and dead.

Catholic sacraments to me are dead, ritual and rites, that when I was young caused me more hours of boredom rather then true encounters with God. When a Christian becomes saved and has the Holy Spirit indwelling and prays and lays hands on for healing for fellow Christians, and shares Christian fellowship, Catholic sacraments pale by FAR. Living as a Christian is an amazing wonderful thing, and for me it is not a Sunday morning only affair.

I feel the power of the Holy Spirit and God's grace daily when I pray, when I study God's Word, and I never felt that within the Catholic Church. I have seen God's grace among the body of Christ even to the point of bringing me to tears of happiness. I am sure some will blame me, you were a bad Catholic, but then you know why I believe that was so...
[/quote]
What do you say about people who go through the same activities that excite you and make you feel graced but who don't get excited or feel graced?

[Anomaly]

Mulls,
This thread is already demonstrating how people put belonging or not belonging to a particular religion as more important that behaving in a Christian manner.
Budge's religion is based on her rejection of Catholicism and her rejection of all who do not agree 100% with her. Ther have been many threads here that if you leave the Catholic Church, you are going to HELL. We'll have those posts here by the next page.
I find the article Budge posted very truthful. Catholics do have access to the most sources of grace, but as an institution (church), they do the least with what they have.
In my human and biased opinion, I'd say you left the environment of the Catholic Church (where graces abound) but are not utilized, to a place with fewer sources of grace, but the most is gotten out of it.
To answer your question, I'd say you are better off because you are in a situation that you are responding more strongly to grace, not because more grace is available.

[mulls]

[quote name='Balthazor' post='1107903' date='Nov 1 2006, 06:04 PM']
He was already a Christian budge.
[/quote]


aha, this is what i wanted to get at!

you really think i was a christian at that stage in my life? on the voter registration sheet, on surveys, yet....i could check the box.

but a relationship with God? more than mere mental assent and going through motions? you really think so?

let me be vulnerable for a moment...

before i really followed Christ, i was a heavy drinker and partyer, chased girls, was addicted to pornography (not ashamed, wouldn't have called it an addiction), cursed like a sailor, frequented strip clubs, was developing a gambling problem, looked for fights....catch my drift?

but because i went to mass often, and identified myself as a catholic, you would really call me a Christ follower?