Was I Better Off Back Then?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='mulls' post='1107935' date='Nov 1 2006, 06:21 PM']
i guess. i went because i felt guilty. i wanted to be forgiven of the bad stuff.

so are you saying that you must intend to experience the grace, or you can't really have it?

in my story, the first time i went to church with my friend, i didn't intend or expect for anything to happen. but God's Word pierced me. i was convicted. i recognized my sin, and i knew i had to do something about it. i gave my life to Christ the next sunday. the whole week in between i spent thinking about my life, how i wasn't living the God intended me to live. He was preparing me. i didn't think all that was going to happen when i walked into that church. but that's where God wanted me. i didn't ask for it, i didn't deserve it, it was unmerited. but THAT'S grace baby.
[/quote]I don't have an argument for that, other than to share my story.
I used to be a hard drinking, hard smoking, drug dealer and theif. Sex, drugs, and theft, baby. I stole from poor people, had sex with plenty of people, and got kids drunk and stoned. I've sold drugs to people who robbed to pay for them, and to parents who couldn't afford my drugs and food. I've had plenty of fights, but was better at instigating others to fight. I hung with people who did much worse than me, so I thought I wasn't so bad.
I claim that graces I recieved earlier in my lift stuck with me and helped me know there was a certain line I wouldn't cross. (Believe me, there are many things I could have done, but chose not to). When I got romantic about one of my bar friends, we both felt moved to be a little better. She wanted to be Catholic (not because of my behavior), and I was okay with that. Going through that process reawakened me and changed me almost immediately. Gone were the drugs, sex, and worst crimes. Eventually, I even gave up smoking while trusting in God.
Tell me, where did I get the graces to do all that over years, even when I was not a practicing Christian? I'm not as uptight about only attending Catholic services. I've been to plenty others, attending weddings, baptisims, participating in weddings, funerals, or just fellowshipping with friends. I personally see a huge difference in graces, and I do see lot's of pentecostals, baptists, etc., who are as authentic as a politician.

[Balthazor]

He was always seeking after you. Through the Catholic Church as well....

[Budge]

[quote]remember a couple of years back I went to a lukewarm left-leaning Catholic Church. I left before communion with the words "God is not in this place." I think it's probably a feeling Budge and Mulls also understand.[/quote]

Thanks for understanding.

I have been to a variety of Catholic churches and feel that way about the Catholic Church in general. While there are many individuals that definitely seek after God within the Catholic Church, as an institution I believe it leads people away.

My last Catholic Church was quite liberal, they preached prolife, but of course preached interfaithism and other things I encountered while UU.

as Ive written on here before, I believe the Catholic Church definitely is teaching another gospel, and one that has much in common with what I learned in 13 years of the UU. {Unitarian Universalists} for newbies, I was in born raised Catholic then UU for many years before a short return to Catholic church, and then was saved...

[quote]It really jolts me when I think of the Book of Revelation where Christ says He will spit out the lukewarm. I think a lot of Catholic parishes need a re-evangelization. It saddens me when I see people who have left the Church, not necessarily because of doctrine, but because we have failed in our duty of preaching and living authentic Catholicism.[/quote]

Can you folks understand how I see interfaithism as the epitome of LUKEWARMNESS?

Speaking of "authentic Catholicism... Remember the paperwork is not going to change people's lives, the Holy Spirit is. If a church, any church lacks the Holy Spirit, then a church will lead people more to perdition.

How many attend Mass Balthazor believing the problem lies with them when the problem is sacramentalism, it puts up a wall between man and God that does not need to be there.

[mulls]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1107970' date='Nov 1 2006, 06:36 PM']
I don't have an argument for that, other than to share my story.
I used to be a hard drinking, hard smoking, drug dealer and theif. Sex, drugs, and theft, baby. I stole from poor people, had sex with plenty of people, and got kids drunk and stoned. I've sold drugs to people who robbed to pay for them, and to parents who couldn't afford my drugs and food. I've had plenty of fights, but was better at instigating others to fight. I hung with people who did much worse than me, so I thought I wasn't so bad.
I claim that graces I recieved earlier in my lift stuck with me and helped me know there was a certain line I wouldn't cross. (Believe me, there are many things I could have done, but chose not to). When I got romantic about one of my bar friends, we both felt moved to be a little better. She wanted to be Catholic (not because of my behavior), and I was okay with that. Going through that process reawakened me and changed me almost immediately. Gone were the drugs, sex, and worst crimes. Eventually, I even gave up smoking while trusting in God.
Tell me, where did I get the graces to do all that over years, even when I was not a practicing Christian? I'm not as uptight about only attending Catholic services. I've been to plenty others, attending weddings, baptisims, participating in weddings, funerals, or just fellowshipping with friends. I personally see a huge difference in graces, and I do see lot's of pentecostals, baptists, etc., who are as authentic as a politician.
[/quote]

amen to all that.

hope you caught my last post to you.

[Balthazor]

THe Sacraments are a Channel through which God Works Budge not a Barrier.

[Anomaly]

Budge,
Don't let the fires of hatred fool you that it's a better warmth from lukewarmness.

Mulls,
I find many protestants religions are focused on being 'not-Catholic', like Budge here, instead of focused on being good, practicing Christians. When people start putting up walls in their new church, they think they are keeping the heat out, but sadly, they are also working to wall out undesireables who will call them on who they are.

I'm way far from being a saint and being everything I believe God wants me to be. I need to be around people who want to be better and are actively working on it, not self-satisfied smug people who believe they are better and show it by kicking out those who are inferior, not right enough, etc. In my opinion, if I can change my life from what it was, I really don't think it's too much to expect a preacher to be faithful to his wife, or a priest to keep his hands off guys. But sometimes I worry that maybe that's my own smugness.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Budge' post='1107976' date='Nov 1 2006, 06:40 PM']
1. Can you folks understand how I see interfaithism as the epitome of LUKEWARMNESS?

2. Speaking of "authentic Catholicism... Remember the paperwork is not going to change people's lives, the Holy Spirit is. If a church, any church lacks the Holy Spirit, then a church will lead people more to perdition.

3. How many attend Mass Balthazor believing the problem lies with them when the problem is sacramentalism, it puts up a wall between man and God that does not need to be there.
[/quote]
I have numbered your post to make it easier:

1. Yes - when it goes too far. There is no reason to fear a united front against the evils of the world or to fear Christians and non-Christians talking to each other about points they agree on. If you have seen unity through ignoring differences preached in Catholic churches, it was false teaching and I apologize that you had to hear it.

2. Paperwork is not Catholicism, just as it is not Lutheranism, Buddhism, etc. Catholicism must be lived. If there is a church without the Holy Spirit, I'm not sure it's a church at all.

3. There is no wall: [i]"Sacraments are "powers that comes forth" from the Body of Christ, which is ever-living and life-giving. They are actions of the Holy Spirit at work in his Body, the Church. They are "the masterworks of God" in the new and everlasting covenant" (CCC 1116)[/i]. The Sacraments are a commission from Christ, not a program we've created to develop holiness. The Apostles did not make baptism up, they were told to baptize.

Edited November 1, 2006 by thedude

[mulls]

anomaly,

I appreciate your realness. I really do. In fact, I myself have been getting quite disillusioned with some of the things you mention, taking place in the contemporary evangelical world. Like, really cynical and disillusioned. I find many things to be very shallow. I see alot of quick-fix, easy-answers. I see people fooling themselves. I know I have some gifts of discernment, of being able to observe and read people and see things for how they really are. Sometimes I wish I could give those gifts back, because it hurts to see.

I pray you find an authentic Christian community that will guide you to greater intimacy with the Lord, people who recognize their own broken-ness and sinfulness. I'm blessed to have that to a certain degree. And when I say I pray, I really will.

I wish we could hang out in real life and shoot straight with each other.

Edited November 1, 2006 by mulls

[Anomaly]

[quote name='mulls' post='1108004' date='Nov 1 2006, 06:56 PM']
anomaly,

I appreciate your realness. I really do. In fact, I myself have been getting quite disillusioned with some of the things you mention, taking place in the contemporary evangelical world. Like, really cynical and disillusioned. I find many things to be very shallow. I see alot of quick-fix, easy-answers. I see people fooling themselves. I know I have some gifts of discernment, of being able to observe and read people and see things for how they really are. Sometimes I wish I could give those gifts back, because it hurts to see.

I pray you find an authentic Christian community that will guide you to greater intimacy with the Lord, who recognize their own brokeness and sinfulness. I'm blessed to have that to a certain degree. And when I say I pray, I really will.

I wish we could hang out in real life and shoot straight with each other.
[/quote]One of the greatest gifts God has given me, is a sense of humor. Believe it or not, I am not always serious. It would be cool to chill and talk and laugh. I think God isn't as serious as people wish.
Just as we often are not the people we want to be, others may not be the people who they want to be either. Never wish away the gift of not being completely satisifed, because that's grace that prods us.

[Balthazor]

Like anywhere, politics gets in the way.
That is why people would get fed up and go into the desert and live as hermits...it is easier dealing with sand , sun and scorpions than people and God at the same time...

Oh well just another opportunity to respond in Grace and love.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Balthazor' post='1107987' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:46 PM']The Sacraments are a Channel through which God Works Budge not a Barrier.[/quote]
Yes! I converted when I was 15, had only been to confession once when I had my First Holy Communion. I didn't know much about theology, I just made an appointment with a Priest and confessed my sins. I couldn't tell you what "absolution" was, I couldn't even tell you what a Rosary was except for a bunch of beads. But when I walked out of the rectory after confessing my sins, I felt such a supernatural peace that I couldn't explain, that had nothing to do with "works" or anything that I had done. But I knew that I was right with God, and that I was home in his Church., and it was the Sacrament which communicated that grace to me.

I guess you could call that my "born again" moment (although I was already born again in Baptism), but it was in the Catholic Church that it happened!

[Seven77]

Great thread!

mulls, the route you took will prove to be truly Providential. a great blessing even! in this way:

now that you already have the zeal... God wants to give you more!

i had a nurse who was raised Catholic but went over to the Pentecostal church. there she was set ablaze for Christ. subsequently, she's back at the Catholic Church doing what Phatmass calls evangelizing [fellow] Catholics.

God works good in all things! (Rom. 8:28) We can see something of why God allowed the Reformation to happen.

Your Protestant faith is meant to be utterly fulfilled someday.

[Balthazor]

[quote name='Seven77' post='1108025' date='Nov 1 2006, 06:22 PM']
Great thread!

mulls, the route you took will prove to be truly Providential. a great blessing even! in this way:

now that you already have the zeal... God wants to give you more!

i had a nurse who was raised Catholic but went over to the Pentecostal church. there she was set ablaze for Christ. subsequently, she's back at the Catholic Church doing what Phatmass calls evangelizing [fellow] Catholics.

God works good in all things! (Rom. 8:28) We can see something of why God allowed the Reformation to happen.

Your Protestant faith is meant to be utterly fulfilled someday.
[/quote]
You know you have a really good point, I suppose it doesn't really matter how your fire gets lit. lol : I have been to pentacostal services, they certainly have a lot of lighter fluid.

[mulls]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1108007' date='Nov 1 2006, 07:04 PM']
Never wish away the gift of not being completely satisifed, because that's grace that prods us.
[/quote]



dude I been preaching that lately!!!!!!

that's so where I'm at right now. I'm trying to be content with my life, as Paul says to be....food, clothing, possessions, etc.

but NEVER satisfied, with my growth, with my relationships, with the Lord.


preach.

[quote name='Seven77' post='1108025' date='Nov 1 2006, 07:22 PM']
Great thread!

mulls, the route you took will prove to be truly Providential. a great blessing even! in this way:

now that you already have the zeal... God wants to give you more!

i had a nurse who was raised Catholic but went over to the Pentecostal church. there she was set ablaze for Christ. subsequently, she's back at the Catholic Church doing what Phatmass calls evangelizing [fellow] Catholics.

God works good in all things! (Rom. 8:28) We can see something of why God allowed the Reformation to happen.

Your Protestant faith is meant to be utterly fulfilled someday.
[/quote]


many people have said that to me here many times. i'll simply say, it's nice to be wanted back.

p.s. my faith isn't protestant

[Jasvon]

Budge, when you were going through the process of discerning the Truth, you hung out on every militant anti-Catholic site you could find on the net!! You were influenced whether you believe it or not. Had you stayed put in the Catholic Church and continued in prayer and study, you would have found the Lord. Instead, you're now a militant anti-Catholic yourself.....and no closer to the Lord than you were to begin with....just a little more knowledgeable about Him.

God bless you