Was I Better Off Back Then?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1109700' date='Nov 3 2006, 11:13 AM']
I don't think that is an obscure belief. Most well versed Christians, and logical people, look at evidence to justify a claim. 'They'll know by the fruits of the spirit'. When Catholics attend Mass and see 95% of the people with blank faces, singing by just moving their lips, talking to each other, letting their kids run wild or messing with their kids constantly, quick to cut you off in the parking lot, limit conversation before or after mass to the juicy gossip, see the priest allow egarious liturgical abuses, find it difficult to break into the 'clique' to participate in some minisitry, know the priest is abusive, profane, followed by scandal; the ministries are more about belonging to a social clique than being effective...

Then you go and see the vibrancy of the Holy Spirit working in another "church/denomination".

The words written in the 'un-truncated bible' seem to be words written in dust when you go and see the fewer words of the 66 book bible being acted upon as the Living Word.

If you're the guy laying in the gutter after being mugged, and you see the devout and scholarly Jew walk by, but the Samaritan is the one who stops to help you, who should want to emulate if you want to be a follower of God?
[/quote]

The Church is in need of constant renewal. However, to say that the Church has been corrupted beyond recognition or renewal is to despair. Christ will renew His Bride. He is doing it as we speak.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1109702' date='Nov 3 2006, 09:25 AM']
The Church is in need of constant renewal. However, to say that the Church has been corrupted beyond recognition or renewal is to despair. Christ will renew His Bride. He is doing it as we speak.
[/quote]Pablum. I've heard that for more years then you've been on this planet.
How would you feel if you've raised your children in the Catholic Church, had your wife convert to Catholicism, faithfully believed and practiced it, and watched the behavior of clergy and "catholics" cause your children to not want to even be a Christian? It is grotesque that when problems are pointed out, all that is given in response is, 'Nobody's perfect', the Church will renew, etc., etc. The experience is year after year, decade after decade, parish after parish, things keep getting worse. Sorry, but clergy and congregation can destroy people's faith and make it impossible to live the graces given in Sacraments. mulls is wrong in the thought that grace is overwhelming and will lead to good works if grace is really given. Grace is never forced on our wills, and thusly, is subject to the affects of your sins and the sins and actions of those around you.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1109707' date='Nov 3 2006, 11:36 AM']
Pablum. I've heard that for more years then you've been on this planet.
How would you feel if you've raised your children in the Catholic Church, had your wife convert to Catholicism, faithfully believed and practiced it, and watched the behavior of clergy and "catholics" cause your children to not want to even be a Christian? It is grotesque that when problems are pointed out, all that is given in response is, 'Nobody's perfect', the Church will renew, etc., etc. The experience is year after year, decade after decade, parish after parish, things keep getting worse. Sorry, but clergy and congregation can destroy people's faith and make it impossible to live the graces given in Sacraments. mulls is wrong in the thought that grace is overwhelming and will lead to good works if grace is really given. Grace is never forced on our wills, and thusly, is subject to the affects of your sins and the sins and actions of those around you.
[/quote]
Yes, grace can only work as much as we allow it.

Gandhi may not have been a Christian, but his saying stands true: "Be the change you want to see in the world."

What's my excuse? What's your excuse?

We have to renew ourselves if we expect the Church to renew. I'm not trying to judge you or anything, I'm not exactly a saint, but the question stands. We can't let the evils among Church members scandalize us. We must work to renew ourselves and so hope to renew them. Sometimes that's painful, sometimes it's hard, but it is our work. Anyone who gives it up has no right to complain about the Church's lack of renewal.

[Anomaly]

Raphael,
You don't know what I've done or lived. I participated, served on councils, volunteered, taught, etc. for more than 10 years, just to see Catholics destroy the faith of my family, and other family members around me. Shut the hell up saying I have no right to complain. That's not counting the decades of being a good catholic or the decades of service my family members have served.
Typical.

[Winchester]

So what is the response supposed to be when humans act like humans?

Really, what do you expect?

The behavior of clergy makes people want to not be Catholic. Well, it depends on the behavior. Supporting the unpopular positions (like theones on birth control, homosexuality, marriage and divorce, male preisthood) chases some away. The misbehavior chases others. People will leave the Church, no matter what.

You want we should tack the priests to the church walls (in advance, shut up, Budge?) It's been done, and it didn't do much good.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1109720' date='Nov 3 2006, 12:00 PM']
Raphael,
You don't know what I've done or lived. I participated, served on councils, volunteered, taught, etc. for more than 10 years, just to see Catholics destroy the faith of my family, and other family members around me. Shut the hell up saying I have no right to complain. That's not counting the decades of being a good catholic or the decades of service my family members have served.
Typical.
[/quote]
All of that is wonderful. I'm sorry that bad witnessing caused you to lose faith. Certainly your Cross was a heavy one and I do not blame you for not handling it like a saint (as I said, I am no saint), but you are now against the Church. The fact is that you truly don't have a right to complain. The very fact that you do complain shows that you probably want to be a member of the Church since no one would complain about losing faith in something they didn't really want to believe in anyway. As I said, I'm not judging you. I am merely saying that if you wish to attack the Church based on what is lacking in its members, you have to look to yourself first. That's what humility does. I have to do it as well. Any temptation to blame others before ourselves is to be rejected. "Oh, look at John, he's at Mass with his mistress again...oh, wait...I'm receiving Communion and I'm divorced...who am I to judge?" I'm sorry that you have decided to take everything I say as an insult. May God reward you for the good you did with the faith to continue doing it again.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1109726' date='Nov 3 2006, 10:08 AM']
So what is the response supposed to be when humans act like humans?

Really, what do you expect?

The behavior of clergy makes people want to not be Catholic. Well, it depends on the behavior. Supporting the unpopular positions (like theones on birth control, homosexuality, marriage and divorce, male preisthood) chases some away. The misbehavior chases others. People will leave the Church, no matter what.

You want we should tack the priests to the church walls (in advance, shut up, Budge?) It's been done, and it didn't do much good.
[/quote]What do I expect?
I expect mostly Christian behavior from Christians (51% is good enough). I expect that dysfunctional priests should be the exception, not the rule. I expect the culture to be positive, not destructive. I expect an attitude of merely 'Try as I try', not 'Do as I say, not as I don't do or WON'T try.' I don't expect perfection. My standards are pretty low. After all, I know I've done it all except put a bullet in someone's head while I looked in their eyes. I don't expect to give anyone a free pass. Any failure is acceptable other than the failures from lack of trying. I don't expect a litany of excuses to not change. I don't expect a litany of defense as things crumble around you.
I simply expect a group of broken sinfull imperfect people trying to live the rest of the day a little better than yesterday. At the end of the day, if things didn't work out, at least going to sleep with a bit of hope that tomorrow is another chance to try again. If you think you are called to be a leader, that means you are willing to try harder, not be better.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1109734' date='Nov 3 2006, 10:33 AM']
What do I expect?
I expect mostly Christian behavior from Christians (51% is good enough). I expect that dysfunctional priests should be the exception, not the rule. I expect the culture to be positive, not destructive. I expect an attitude of merely 'Try as I try', not 'Do as I say, not as I don't do or WON'T try.' I don't expect perfection. My standards are pretty low. After all, I know I've done it all except put a bullet in someone's head while I looked in their eyes. I don't expect to give anyone a free pass. Any failure is acceptable other than the failures from lack of trying. I don't expect a litany of excuses to not change. I don't expect a litany of defense as things crumble around you.
I simply expect a group of broken sinfull imperfect people trying to live the rest of the day a little better than yesterday. At the end of the day, if things didn't work out, at least going to sleep with a bit of hope that tomorrow is another chance to try again. If you think you are called to be a leader, that means you are willing to try harder, not be better.
[/quote]
My parish had the reputation for getting the worst priests in the diocese for about 30 years straight. It didn't faze most people because we always figured it was our parish first, and his parish second. He was there to administer the sacraments, it was up to us to keep everything else going. And we did it for 30 years.

[Winchester]

[quote]What do I expect?
I expect mostly Christian behavior from Christians (51% is good enough). I expect that dysfunctional priests should be the exception, not the rule. I expect the culture to be positive, not destructive. I expect an attitude of merely 'Try as I try', not 'Do as I say, not as I don't do or WON'T try.' I don't expect perfection. My standards are pretty low. After all, I know I've done it all except put a bullet in someone's head while I looked in their eyes. I don't expect to give anyone a free pass. Any failure is acceptable other than the failures from lack of trying. I don't expect a litany of excuses to not change. I don't expect a litany of defense as things crumble around you.
I simply expect a group of broken sinfull imperfect people trying to live the rest of the day a little better than yesterday. At the end of the day, if things didn't work out, at least going to sleep with a bit of hope that tomorrow is another chance to try again. If you think you are called to be a leader, that means you are willing to try harder, not be better.[/quote]

You can only make your choices, tho.

If by dysfunctional you mean sinful then you're going to have to deal with the fact that sinful people are the rule, never mind priests.

I've yet to see a litany of excuses to not change.

And yes, as society, so the Church. Except for our doctrine. In fact, the worse our clergy becomes, the more our dogmas stand out as beyond the reach of sinful hands.

[mulls]

[quote]mulls is wrong in the thought that grace is overwhelming and will lead to good works if grace is really given[/quote]


i don't believe it is always overwhelming. i had a conversion experience, which was very powerful. i recognized my sinfulness and need for repentance and to take up my cross and follow Christ. when the Lord calls someone to Himself, it will always be overwhelming, because a person is changing their life/having it changed.

but now, i see grace in little things. like remembering to pray for someone, or a song lyric or a bible verse in my head right before i'm about to do something stupid. it's not overwhelming, and i could certainly choose to ignore it and do the opposite of what it should be leading me too.

[mulls]

[quote name='jswranch' post='1109685' date='Nov 3 2006, 04:40 AM']
Deal. Send me your wishlist.
[/quote]

you serious? i'd pm it to you, but since i don't have that privilege i'll just make it public:

[url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/wishlist/2NBYDG8PQYV6J/"]http://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/wishlist/2NBYDG8PQYV6J/[/url]

two pages to choose from! you can pick the most catholic one there!

i'm guessing it wouldn't be Calvin's Institutes....

[Katholikos]

Golly, anomaly, good thing you weren't around to judge the Church when Judas betrayed Christ. The Church would have been DOA.

The Church is a hospital for sinners (including her priests) and a training ground for saints (including her priests) so it's home to a sinner like me. There are tares among the wheat, just as our Savior said there would be.

Watch out for planks in the eye.

========================
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1109960' date='Nov 3 2006, 03:24 PM']
Golly, anomaly, good thing you weren't around to judge the Church when Judas betrayed Christ. The Church would have been DOA.

The Church is a hospital for sinners (including her priests) and a training ground for saints (including her priests) so it's home to a sinner like me. There are tares among the wheat, just as our Savior said there would be.

Watch out for planks in the eye.

========================
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!
[/quote]
I get that plank in the eye thing alot.
I've overcome a drinking problem, drug problem, sex problem, emotional problems, theft problems, and all sorts of other problems. All I expect is 'try', not self righteousness. I've grown up with guys who've become priests and have known priests on a friendly basis all my life. I don't expect saints.
How's this, let's judge Jesus' inner circle on 5 or 6, not 1. 7 can be traitors who got togther and sold Jesus out. 5 stuck with Jesus and after stumbling and fumbling trying to get it right had minor success. That's great.
If I think I know what's right, I'm not going to follow the 7 who say they were part of the J-Posse and are scheming and coniving to get a Church organization up and running. They got the message from Jesus, but cheating on taxes, expecting forgiveness for running roughshod over people, saying the 'congretation' are a bunch of whiney babies - 'they' know what's right.
I guess it boils down to you people can't fathom what I know and experienced. I know of priests and the Church organization covering up a kid sexually abusing another because the parents were wealthy and influential. But I stayed in the Church. I know of priest embezzleing hundred[b]s[/b] of thousands of dollars. I know priests who played the political games to get millions of $ in donations to build a church that would rival an art musem. I know of parishes that focused the schools to become elite educational institutes, affordable by only the privliged. I could tell you many stories because my family is/was on the 'inside'. When something needed to be done, we did it. Parish Council, School Board, Committee chairpersons, CCD teachers, Volunteer organizer, etc., etc., etc. for decades. I got my kids into any Catholic school with a phone call when there were waiting lines for years for others. I know the stories of the 'others'. We have Mass in our homes at Christmas or special occaisions. We tell the parish when we want to have a wedding. We don't have to accept one of the regular priests, we have the Pastor. We've gotten the Bishop to do our Baptisms.
But we see the other side. We hear and see the 'stories and gossip' in real life. We get to see what really matters to most of these people and what their real concerns are. Dude, I'm very jaded. I have no problem with Catholic Theology other than I do not believe that 'infallibility' is what the Church says it is. Infallibility is NOT never saying 'sorry', it is knowing to say 'oops'. Infallibility is not perfection in action, but knowing the spring won't run dry. There is grace in the Catholic Church, but even the Church admits it is NOT the only source of Grace. The Catholic Churc is the original source, but though the protty's got their basic theology, knowledge of God, and their truncated bible from the Catholics, it must be admitted, God is not limited to the Catholic Church. There will always be 'Good' available from the Catholic Church, but that does not mean there isn't or never will be plenty of evil that will obscure that Good.
I have every right to beesh and complain about the Catholic Church because I learned about God and received graces through the Catholic Church. I have every right to beesh and complain and point out what I see and believe is wrong. I have every right to not like and disparage those things I see as being destructive to my faith, the faith of my children, wife, cousins, siblings, parents, uncles, grandparents.
I have no doubt I've got splinters in my eyes, but I'm not blind or stupid.

I do think mulls is better off leaving the earthly Catholic Church to be in a position where the graces he was given in the sacraments can grow and be fruitful. I do think mulls was further blessed with God's graces via the non-Catholic freind, the non-Catholic preacher, the non-Catholic 'truncated' bible he's reading. Not because he's getting more graces outside the Catholic Church, but because he's away from the spiritually destructive human element of the Catholic Church that way too many Catholics refuse to believe exists, much less do anything about.
Jesus said 'You are MINE', not 'You are Catholic'. God HIMSELF has chosen to be present where 3 or more are gathered in His Name and NOT limit himself to the buildings that have "CATHOLIC" on the sign outside.

[jswranch]

[quote name='mulls' post='1109848' date='Nov 3 2006, 11:13 AM']
you serious? i'd pm it to you, but since i don't have that privilege i'll just make it public:

[url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/wishlist/2NBYDG8PQYV6J/"]http://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/wishlist/2NBYDG8PQYV6J/[/url]

two pages to choose from! you can pick the most catholic one there!

i'm guessing it wouldn't be Calvin's Institutes....
[/quote]

Ok.
Some (little) strings attached
I will get you the Augustine ones, but read Confessions second. I will also get you 'The Way' by St. Jose Maria-Escriva, but I want you to mail it to me when you are done (COD if necessary).

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1109960' date='Nov 3 2006, 02:24 PM']
The Church is a hospital for sinners (including her priests) and a training ground for saints (including her priests) so it's home to a sinner like me. There are tares among the wheat, just as our Savior said there would be.
[/quote]

That has got to be one of the best answers I've seen here.

That being said, regarding scandals in the church, it seems we are caught between two extremes regarding how to handle clerical scandals.

One extreme is to "shoot first, ask questions later" - what Winchester calls "nailing them to the wall".

The other extreme is to cover it up and "let God take care of it in His time" because how dare we take any action against someone whose hands are used to consecrate Eucharist when instead we should be kissing those hands. This view is justified by some based on a 19th century PRIVATE revelation (which is not binding on the Church at large).

But the PUBLIC revelation in the bible is contained in 1 Timothy 5:19-20, which can be summarized as:

1) Don't pay attention to allegations unless supported by multiple witnesses
2) If they are found guilty, they are to be PUBLICLY reprimanded so that others may be deterred