Was I Better Off Back Then?

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='mulls' post='1107738' date='Nov 1 2006, 04:50 PM']
you mean, like Pharoah? no, i don't think it was that severe. but i did, however, harden my conscience over time. i always had a strong understanding of right and wrong, but the more i dabbled with deeper sin, the easier it was to justify my behavior. especially when i would go to mass and confession....i would go in feeling guilty, but i would come over feeling nice and clean. and ready for some more action.
[/quote]


[quote name='mulls' post='1107884' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:52 PM']
for argument's sake, i'm saying that if there actually is grace in the sacraments, it had no effect on me. it was unrecognizable. it's not like i chose to ignore it...if it was there, i didn't know it. hmm....i guess this would have to be called 'insufficient' then. probably because there was nothing behind it...no direction, no "you received grace, now this is what you can do with it....."
[/quote]

I could be mistaking the last part of the first quote, but if you go to confession without the intent to even try and improve your life in Christ, wouldn't that be ignoring the true grace of the sacrament of reconcilation?

Edited November 1, 2006 by CatholicCid

[mulls]

[quote name='Budge' post='1107899' date='Nov 1 2006, 06:00 PM']
See my post above mulls.

I agree, many of us ex-s have been through that experience.

My life totally changed after becoming a Christian.
you are far better off as a born-again Christian with your name now written in the book of life!

Praise God!
[/quote]


:

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='mulls' post='1107849' date='Nov 1 2006, 05:37 PM']
thing is, it didn't have an effect. i needed a personal trainer. i needed instruction. that was God's Word for me. that's what i didn't get at mass.
[/quote]
I totally agree, but we have to go beyond the Mass. There are a multitude of other aspects of the Church that can go deeper into instruction (catechesis, bible study, the Magisterium, spiritual writings of the saints, etc.). I am not sure that the Mass is supposed to be all-encompassing in that sense. Sadly, this outside instruction is often presented inadequately, as I'm sure you know. The thing is, the sacraments really do work. That's obvious when we see some of the Church's greatest saints. Unfortunately, most of us are not receiving the proper spiritual workout necessary to really grasp their full effect.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='mulls' post='1107906' date='Nov 1 2006, 06:07 PM']
cool. i'm encouraged that that makes sense.

ok, so you've experienced grace, it has actually played out in your life in the past. but now....should i take you saying you don't go to church, to mean that you no longer believe?

to that i would say, the grace you received (if indeed it was actually God's grace), was an end unto itself....it helped you at the time, but now....?

i know the grace that i received when laid down my life before the Lord, through the preaching of the Word, was a means....the end being God Himself. i know that the grace i received, drawing me to faith and repentance, led to an eternal change, going from a child of wrath to a child of God. that's grace that i can never give back.

now, the grace i receive through obedience, prayer, etc., i can choose to do things with. i can become more intimate with the Lord, or stray away.

i know i know, now i'm taking eternal security, osas, whatever. but i'm trying to make the grace distinction more clear. i really want to hear your thoughts, how grace plays, or doesn't play, out in your life now.
[/quote]I do believe in fundamental Catholic theology. I don't believe in Catholic practice. I find it spiritually destructive.

It's tought to say how grace plays out in my life right now. I'd say grace is operating as I don't feel cut off from God. I have a yearning for greater intimacy with God, but that is matched with a growing repugnancy of Catholic practices. As a family, we talked about it the other night. My daughters are 18 & 20, beyond the age I can force attendance. We all agree we want to attend Church, but are just as turned off by anti-Catholicsm at other churches.

[mulls]

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1107919' date='Nov 1 2006, 06:12 PM']
I could be mistaking the last part of the first quote, but if you go to confession without the intent to even try and improve your life in Christ, wouldn't that be ignoring the true grace of the sacrament of reconcilation?
[/quote]

i guess. i went because i felt guilty. i wanted to be forgiven of the bad stuff.

so are you saying that you must intend to experience the grace, or you can't really have it?

in my story, the first time i went to church with my friend, i didn't intend or expect for anything to happen. but God's Word pierced me. i was convicted. i recognized my sin, and i knew i had to do something about it. i gave my life to Christ the next sunday. the whole week in between i spent thinking about my life, how i wasn't living the God intended me to live. He was preparing me. i didn't think all that was going to happen when i walked into that church. but that's where God wanted me. i didn't ask for it, i didn't deserve it, it was unmerited. but THAT'S grace baby.

[Budge]

I believe they are being STARVED.

Starved of Gods Word, and the Holy Spirit.

Too many are stuck in LUKEWARM churches and I point to prot ones here too where people barely believe.

The true life changing gospel is EXCITING and never boring. When one knows Christ one is never bored. When churches teach false gospels, sacramentalism, social gospel, purpose driven life, there is nothing there to set people on fire for God. They are bored and starved for lack of spiritual food.

I know when I watch EWTN, I have for research before, the bored expressions on the faces, the repetition says it all.

You dont have to be denied an exciting wonderful relationship with God, that brings joy to every day--even when I am having difficulties, I know God is always there for me in a way I never did as a Catholic.

The joy is not a selfish one either, it is a life-changing one.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='mulls' post='1107935' date='Nov 1 2006, 08:21 PM']
i guess. i went because i felt guilty. i wanted to be forgiven of the bad stuff.

so are you saying that you must intend to experience the grace, or you can't really have it?
[/quote]
You must intend it implicitly...that is, you don't have to think, "gosh, I want grace," but one of the requirements for Confession is that you will to amend your life. You ask God to forgive you with the desire to become a better person and be fixed of your problems and He does that with His grace through the sacrament.

[mulls]

[quote]I do believe in fundamental Catholic theology. I don't believe in Catholic practice. I find it spiritually destructive. [/quote]

wow. talk about being between a rock and a hard place. i feel for you bro.

[quote]It's tought to say how grace plays out in my life right now. I'd say grace is operating as I don't feel cut off from God. I have a yearning for greater intimacy with God, but that is matched with a growing repugnancy of Catholic practices. As a family, we talked about it the other night. [/quote]

again, wow.

[quote]My daughters are 18 & 20, beyond the age I can force attendance. [/quote]

i'm 23. are they cute? looking for a nice christian man? SIKE! :

[quote]We all agree we want to attend Church, but are just as turned off by anti-Catholicsm at other churches.[/quote]

really? is anti-catholicism really a main thing where you are at, coming from the pulpit and stuff? hmmm....i would challenge you with the same thing i challenged kizlar with a few pages ago. walk into a church, tell them where you're at, that you're looking for intimacy with Christ, challenge them to be Christians and to help you out. they better darn well act right and respond with the love of Christ.

[Budge]

[quote]God's Word pierced me[/quote]

That is grace!

I started reading the Bible while still Catholic, no Christian, no Bible banger showed up on my doorstep. God's Word is what convicted me and I was reading a Catholic NAB Bible. The book of Romans and Hebrews is what got me asking questions and realizing what Jesus Christ truly had done.

Gods Word changed my life and it looks like it has changed yours.

[KizlarAgha]

I remember a couple of years back I went to a lukewarm left-leaning Catholic Church. I left before communion with the words "God is not in this place." I think it's probably a feeling Budge and Mulls also understand.

[Balthazor]

You were baptised, you had an open door to follow. If you say you followed and were Catholic, then I beleive you. If you beieve in Christ you are a Christian. I can not judge hearts, but obviously you had something in it, or you would not have gone looking for more Christ.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

It really jolts me when I think of the Book of Revelation where Christ says He will spit out the lukewarm. I think a lot of Catholic parishes need a re-evangelization. It saddens me when I see people who have left the Church, not necessarily because of doctrine, but because we have failed in our duty of preaching and living authentic Catholicism.

Edited November 1, 2006 by thedude

[CatholicCid]

No, I was just commenting on the statement.
If you went to confession just because of guilt and did not intend to reform or be sincere, what would you expect to get out of it?

Do you have to intend to experience grace? I don't think anyone can ever expect to know when or where they feel grace. It's a free gift from God that we do not deserve. However, even if a free gift is shoved right in your face, you still have to open the package.

[Balthazor]

I think that you all fail to realize that Mass is not always what you try and get out of it....
It is also what you bring to it.
If you bring nothing you will recieve nothing if you come with a hardened heart then how can you see and hear God when He is calling for you.

[mulls]

[quote name='Balthazor' post='1107953' date='Nov 1 2006, 06:28 PM']
You were baptised, you had an open door to follow. If you say you followed and were Catholic, then I beleive you. If you beieve in Christ you are a Christian. I can not judge hearts, but obviously you had something in it, or you would not have gone looking for more Christ.
[/quote]

that's the thing, i[u] did not go looking for more Christ[/u]. i had a friend who loved me who knew [i]i needed Christ[/i]. he invited me to church, and i accepted, out of respect for him, out of curiosity about a protestant service, and out of making sure i do my daily sunday duty. but that's where God's grace got me!

i didn't look for Christ, but he sought after and found me!

Edited November 1, 2006 by mulls