Lying To Ourselves

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Happy_Catholic' date='31 December 2009 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1262292253' post='2027903']
As a Pro-Lifer, I can tell you when some idiot decides to blow up a clinic or snipe on an abortionist I get so mad and riled up God help the internet! Same with the sex scandals that rock the church on occasion. Being disgusted and chastising those who shoot abortionists does not make me any less Pro-Life.
[/quote]

Happy,

Would it have been moral to shoot the kommandant of Auchwitz? How about Reinhard Heydrich?

~Sternhauser

[Winchester]

[img]http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/colonel_klink.jpg[/img]
Vot are you implying?

[Veridicus]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='31 December 2009 - 01:33 PM' timestamp='1262288033' post='2027879']
They WANT the world. Sequestering them will do nothing. You remember what one of our Muslim friends said: "Islam will dominate the world."
[/quote]

They [i]do [/i]want the world. And they [i]don't[/i] have to use force. Look at Western Europe. They are simply outbreeding and out-immigrating the native birth-controlled secular population. It's evolution in microcosm and the Mohammedians will outbreed our enlightened godless western culture...they don't need bombs to succeed.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='01 January 2010 - 01:31 AM' timestamp='1262327464' post='2028022']
They [i]do [/i]want the world. And they [i]don't[/i] have to use force. Look at Western Europe. They are simply outbreeding and out-immigrating the native birth-controlled secular population. It's evolution in microcosm and the Mohammedians will outbreed our enlightened godless western culture...they don't need bombs to succeed.
[/quote]

Oh this is so true.

[Happy_Catholic]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='31 December 2009 - 07:58 PM' timestamp='1262307522' post='2027977']
Happy,

Would it have been moral to shoot the kommandant of Auchwitz? How about Reinhard Heydrich?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Depends on the variables you imply:

Are these men sitting in a cafe having tea? In which case, are they still in Nazi occupied Europe where their actions are legal or justified by their superiors? Or is this post war?

Regardless, under such circumstances all efforts should be made to arrest them or capture them with intent of having them tried later. Concurrently, the death penalty is not moral.

Or are they lining up hundreds of Jewish children to shoot?

In this situation, who is doing the shooting? Do one of the children have access to a fire arm? Or perhaps a resistance cell happens upon it? Again, all efforts should be made to capture them alive. If they are shot in a cross fire, it can be argued, morally so, that their deaths were a result of a conflict of war, where both parties, or at least them, are aware of the risks involved.

However, while shooting them may be justified, it is not moral.

God made it explicitly clear we are not to usurp His position by ending life.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Happy_Catholic

[Happy_Catholic]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='01 January 2010 - 01:31 AM' timestamp='1262327464' post='2028022']
They [i]do [/i]want the world. And they [i]don't[/i] have to use force. Look at Western Europe. They are simply outbreeding and out-immigrating the native birth-controlled secular population. It's evolution in microcosm and the Mohammedians will outbreed our enlightened godless western culture...they don't need bombs to succeed.
[/quote]

You are correct.

I read something a while ago, an editor was making a comment about a Protestant minster in Britain who had written a piece about how she was going to be environmentally responsible and only have two children, to ensure that the world wouldn't be over populated and its resources exhausted, that way, her two children would have a nice world. However, the editor went onto comment about a Palestine suicide bomber who was the 65year old mother of 20 children and had already clocked up 50 grandchildren.

The editor went on to ask "who does that Protestant minster think is going to inherit the earth?"

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='01 January 2010 - 02:09 AM' timestamp='1262329741' post='2028030']
Oh this is so true.
[/quote]


No, no it's not.

The total Muslims population will expand in Europe but, like all immigrant populations, the trends amongst the Muslim populations levels of and assimilates to the larger European population the longer the famlies are in Europe. As women get more educated, they have fewer children. The longer they live in secular societies the more they assimilate to those societies. That's the trend of other immigrant populations. So far the data suggusts that the Muslim immigrants are generally following this trend. That doesn't mean that every Muslim family is assimilating, but as an aggregate that's the trend. Yes, some families will still have ten kids. Some Irish Catholic famlies still have large numbers of children. But with regard to the overall trend the protestant American nativists claims had abot the same validity as yours. They also worked from the same inclinations and temperments which motivate you.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='01 January 2010 - 01:31 AM' timestamp='1262327464' post='2028022']
They [i]do [/i]want the world. And they [i]don't[/i] have to use force. Look at Western Europe. They are simply outbreeding and out-immigrating the native birth-controlled secular population. It's evolution in microcosm and the Mohammedians will outbreed our enlightened godless western culture...they don't need bombs to succeed.
[/quote]


Most immigrant populations have short temr exponential growth. But they level off. In several generations the Muslim population in Europe will be much larger than it was one hundred years ago, but it will be far from a majority, largely secularized, and over all assimilated to the larger Europen society.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Hassan' date='01 January 2010 - 04:14 AM' timestamp='1262337295' post='2028051']
Most immigrant populations have short temr exponential growth. But they level off. In several generations the Muslim population in Europe will be much larger than it was one hundred years ago, but it will be far from a majority, largely secularized, and over all assimilated to the larger Europen society.
[/quote]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcLMH8pwusw[/media]

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='01 January 2010 - 01:31 AM' timestamp='1262327464' post='2028022']
They [i]do [/i]want the world. And they [i]don't[/i] have to use force. Look at Western Europe. They are simply outbreeding and out-immigrating the native birth-controlled secular population. It's evolution in microcosm and the Mohammedians will outbreed our enlightened godless western culture...they don't need bombs to succeed.
[/quote]

What I tend to notice is that the second and third generations usually assimilate into the country better than their parents. Even if this doesn't result in a complete loss of their faith it does generally lead to version of Islam that can be easily integrated into Western society. I know a Muslim girl who holds nothing against me for being gay despite the fact that here grandparents probably think I should be executed. We can help this process of integrating Muslims into our society by being open and understanding. We have to ask ourselves why so many young Muslims brought up in Western countries have turned to home grown terrorism? More often than not it's not because they feel some calling from Allah but because they've been rejected by wider society and will forever be confined to ethnic enclaves and the "not really one of us" category. Broad generalizations such as the ones exhibited on this forum don't help.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Happy_Catholic' date='01 January 2010 - 02:40 AM' timestamp='1262331607' post='2028036']
Depends on the variables you imply:

Are these men sitting in a cafe having tea?[/quote]

They're about to start their day of killing mostly innocent non-Jews and a large minority of Jews.

[quote]
In which case, are they still in Nazi occupied Europe where theiractions are legal or justified by their superiors? Or is this post war?[/quote]

Murder can never be legal. Legal implies law. A law must be an ordinance of right reason. Murder is contrary to reason.


[quote]Regardless, under such circumstances all efforts should be made to arrest them or capture them with intent of having them tried later. Concurrently, the death penalty is not moral.[/quote]

Not at all feasible. And while you talk about arresting them, their life's work is still slaughtering innocents.


[quote]Or are they lining up hundreds of Jewish children to shoot? [/quote]

They're lined up. In a queue. They're called "appointments," however. None of this "execution" or "slaughter" language. It's so distasteful to our modern ears.


[quote]In this situation, who is doing the shooting? Do one of the children have access to a fire arm? Or perhaps a resistance cell happens upon it? Again, all efforts should be made to capture them alive. If they are shot in a cross fire, it can be argued, morally so, that their deaths were a result of a conflict of war, where both parties, or at least them, are aware of the risks involved.
[/quote]

Your questions are immaterial. My question: is it moral to kill someone in order to stop him from killing innocents? The Church says yes.


[quote]
However, while shooting them may be justified, it is not moral.[/quote]
If it's justified, it's moral.


[quote]God made it explicitly clear we are not to usurp His position by ending life.
[/quote]

When did he say that? The Church does not say and never has said that killing a human being is an intrinsically immoral act. The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is a mistranslation of the Hebrew word [i]ratsah[/i], which is a [i]criminal[/i] act of killing. It is "Thou shalt not murder." In other words, "Thou shalt not kill the innocent." St. Thomas himself approved of tyrannicide.

~Sternhauser

Edited January 1, 2010 by Sternhauser

[HisChildForever]

Stern, what on earth are you going on about? Are you going to read the article that this thread is based on?

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='01 January 2010 - 11:40 AM' timestamp='1262364008' post='2028111']
Stern, what on earth are you going on about? Are you going to read the article that this thread is based on?
[/quote]

What am I talking about? Is that really a sincere question? Because it is evident that I am responding to someone who seemed to put the act of killing of an infanticidal maniac into the same field as the act of a Mahometan killing "infidels" for not being Mahometans.

~Sternhauser

Edited January 1, 2010 by Sternhauser

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='01 January 2010 - 01:10 PM' timestamp='1262369452' post='2028124']
Because it is evident that I am responding to someone who seemed to put the act of killing of an infanticidal maniac into the same field as the act of a Mahometan killing "infidels" for not being Mahometans.
[/quote]

I have absolutely no idea how you reached THAT conclusion.

Happy_Catholic was explaining that as a Pro-Life Catholic, she would never advocate the violent destruction of an abortion clinic - and would be quick to chastise the "Pro-Life" individuals who partook in that destruction. She noted, however, that even the most charitable and peaceful Muslims do not come out to condemn the destructive acts performed by Islamic terrorists. I should add that she is not the only one in this thread who has said something to that effect.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='01 January 2010 - 05:43 PM' timestamp='1262382236' post='2028182']
She noted, however, that even the most charitable and peaceful Muslims do not come out to condemn the destructive acts performed by Islamic terrorists. I should add that she is not the only one in this thread who has said something to that effect.
[/quote]
[url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/16/islam-synagogue-arson-gaza-antisemitism"]We unreservedly condemn attacks on the Jewish community[/url]

[url="http://www.freep.com/article/20091229/NEWS05/91229007/Metro-Detroit-Muslims-condemn-botched-attack"]Metro Detroit Muslims condemn botched attack[/url]

[url="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/28/national/main712548.shtml"]Muslim Scholars Condemn Terror[/url]


Extensive database of Islamic condemnations of terrorism:
[url="http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php"]muhajabah.com[/url]

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='01 January 2010 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1262383433' post='2028194']
[url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/16/islam-synagogue-arson-gaza-antisemitism"]We unreservedly condemn attacks on the Jewish community[/url]

[url="http://www.freep.com/article/20091229/NEWS05/91229007/Metro-Detroit-Muslims-condemn-botched-attack"]Metro Detroit Muslims condemn botched attack[/url]

[url="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/28/national/main712548.shtml"]Muslim Scholars Condemn Terror[/url]


Extensive database of Islamic condemnations of terrorism:
[url="http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php"]muhajabah.com[/url]
[/quote]

Thank you for the articles, I have been browsing through them. I have to say that from the articles I have read through, they strike me as very passive aggressive.

For example,

[b]Iran's Ayatollah Imami Kashani spoke of a catastrophic act of terrorism which could only be condemned by all Muslims, adding the whole world should mobilise against terrorism. [/b]

Okay awesome. But then,

[b] But if its roots were really to be tackled, terrorism and its practitioners would have to be defined, he said, pointing to Israel and calling it a "terrorist state which was killing children".

America's support and its arrogant policies around the world might help to explain the brutalism of the hijackers, he added.[/b]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1544955.stm

Is this really necessary? Is he making excuses for the attack so soon after he condemned it? Why not just focus on condemning the terrorism? Earlier in this thread I mentioned an American Imam's blog. In one entry he offered condolences for the families of the Ft. Hood victims, but then turned around demanding sympathy for Muslims in the Middle East. It just seems to me that these are not honest condolences.

[HisChildForever]

Here is another snippet from a separate article,

[b]Leading Islamic scholar Sheikh Taha Jaber Alwani, president of the School of Islamic and Social Sciences in Leesburg, Virginia, told AP news, "Muslims [u]in this country[/u] would think this is unacceptable. I can't accept anything against any American citizen. I'm Muslim. I'm also American. I love America."[/b]

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2001-09/13/article1.shtml

Instead of assuring us that Islam does not condone terrorism or any act of violence, this scholar instead assures us that all [u]American Muslims[/u] would think it "unacceptable." What, Islam would not? Just individuals?

[Lilllabettt]

I got into an argument with a Vietnamese guy about the war there. I told him a story I know about a thirsty 19 year old GI who was given a Coke by a smiling village kid. The Coke was laced with glass, he drank it, you can imagine what happened. This Vietnamese guy's response was "Well, that was certainly wrong! But so was My Lai!"

The Israelis do the same when they turn up with blood on their hands. And they are not so unjustified in doing so.

But the point is this is what biologists call typical human behavior. It is a corollary to the humiliation of having to apologize for your community. A defense mechanism. No one swallows humble pie easily.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='01 January 2010 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1262386641' post='2028213']
It is a corollary to the humiliation of having to apologize for your community.
[/quote]

I am talking about assuring the public that Islam does not condone violence. For example, if a Catholic went out and murdered in the name of the Church, I would be quick to assure people that the Catholic Church does not encourage such atrocities.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='01 January 2010 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1262386641' post='2028213']
I got into an argument with a Vietnamese guy about the war there. I told him a story I know about a thirsty 19 year old GI who was given a Coke by a smiling village kid. The Coke was laced with glass, he drank it, you can imagine what happened. This Vietnamese guy's response was "Well, that was certainly wrong! But so was My Lai!"
[/quote]

I hear the same sort of thing coming from Americans about Nanking and the deliberate bombings of civilians at Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Tokyo. (The same thing the American politicians were all upset about when the Japanese did the same thing to Chinese cities.)

~Sternhauser