Lying To Ourselves

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='01 January 2010 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1262382236' post='2028182']
I have absolutely no idea how you reached THAT conclusion.

Happy_Catholic was explaining that as a Pro-Life Catholic, she would never advocate the violent destruction of an abortion clinic - and would be quick to chastise the "Pro-Life" individuals who partook in that destruction. She noted, however, that even the most charitable and peaceful Muslims do not come out to condemn the destructive acts performed by Islamic terrorists. I should add that she is not the only one in this thread who has said something to that effect.
[/quote]

And I asked her why killing serial murderers (abortionists) in order to stop them from committing more murders is an act that should be condemned.

~Sternhauser

Edited January 1, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Jaime]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='01 January 2010 - 06:47 PM' timestamp='1262389674' post='2028236']
And I asked her why killing serial murderers (abortionists) in order to stop them from committing more murders is an act that should be condemned.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Because it is. Because we are better than that

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='01 January 2010 - 06:47 PM' timestamp='1262389674' post='2028236']
And I asked her why killing serial murderers (abortionists) in order to stop them from committing more murders is an act that should be condemned.
[/quote]

If you had the opportunity to kill an abortionist, would you?

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='01 January 2010 - 09:04 PM' timestamp='1262397895' post='2028274']
If you had the opportunity to kill an abortionist, would you?
[/quote]

Would it be wrong?

~Sternhauser

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='01 January 2010 - 09:07 PM' timestamp='1262398046' post='2028276']
Would it be wrong?
[/quote]

Well, there is that little tablet called the Ten Commandments.

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='01 January 2010 - 10:07 PM' timestamp='1262398046' post='2028276']
Would it be wrong?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Yes. It would be wrong. St. Thomas aquinas says in the Summa the the willful taking of life is always wrong. To kill an abortionist is to will the killing of another. The reason just war is acceptable is because it is justly defending or fighting. One intends to repel a force and threat, not to kill This is different from killing an abortionist since there are other ways of preventing abortion then killing (in this instance willing the stopping of abortion can be removed from killing the abortionist so to kill that abortionist is to willingly kill another individual and not simply to defend although that may be a secondary purpose) and there are no other ways to stop another army other than with proportionate force.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='01 January 2010 - 09:18 PM' timestamp='1262398723' post='2028280']
Well, there is that little tablet called the Ten Commandments.
[/quote]

The one that said "Thou shalt not murder." Murder is not defined as "killing a human being."

~Sternhauser

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='01 January 2010 - 09:49 PM' timestamp='1262400542' post='2028297']
The one that said "Thou shalt not murder." Murder is not defined as "killing a human being."

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

You ARE the guy who said that the state should not use "aggression" against criminals, right? (With "aggression" being defined as "putting them in handcuffs and bringing them to the station".) I am absolutely baffled as to why it's wrong to put a criminal in prison but totally fine to murder an abortionist.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' date='01 January 2010 - 09:19 PM' timestamp='1262398761' post='2028281']
Yes. It would be wrong. St. Thomas aquinas says in the Summa the the willful taking of life is always wrong. To kill an abortionist is to will the killing of another. The reason just war is acceptable is because it is justly defending or fighting. One intends to repel a force and threat, not to kill This is different from killing an abortionist since there are other ways of preventing abortion then killing (in this instance willing the stopping of abortion can be removed from killing the abortionist so to kill that abortionist is to willingly kill another individual and not simply to defend although that may be a secondary purpose) and there are no other ways to stop another army other than with proportionate force.
[/quote]

I fail to see how the mere circumstance of "there is no other option" suddenly means that pulling the trigger and killing an aggressor is not [i]willed[/i]. The intention of the act is not in the circumstances. It is, of course, in the will.

St. Thomas did not say that it was intrinsically wrong to will to kill another. ST II-IIae, Question 64: Article 7: "But as it is unlawful to take a man's life, except for the public authority acting for the common good, as stated above (Article 3), [b]it is not lawful for a man to intend killing a man in self-defense,[/b] [b][i]except[/i] for such as have public authority[/b], [b]who while [i]intending to kill a man[/i] in self-defense,[/b] refer this to the public good, as in the case of a soldier fighting against the foe, and in the minister of the judge struggling with robbers, although even these sin if they be moved by private animosity."

I don't agree with most of the past paragraph, myself, for in many cases, the only "authorities" happen to be the tyrants themselves, and because the public good is not an entity distinct and separate from the good of every individual in society. Furthermore, no individual can possibly grant to a third party a right that he himself does not have.

It is written further:

"Nevertheless, as stated above (2) [b]the slaying of a sinner becomes lawful in relation to the common good[/b], which is corrupted by sin. . . .

Reply to Objection 3. By sinning man departs from the order of reason,and consequently falls away from the dignity of his manhood, in so far as he is naturally free, and exists for himself, and he falls into the slavish state of the beasts, by being disposed of according as he is useful to others. This is expressed in Psalms 48:21: "Man, when he was in honor, did not understand; he hath been compared to senseless beasts, and made like to them," and Proverbs 11:29: "The fool shall serve the wise." [b]Hence, although it be evil in itself to kill a man so long as he preserve his dignity, yet it may be good to kill a man who has sinned, even as it is to kill a beast.[/b] For a bad man is worse than a beast, and is more harmful, as the Philosopher states (Politics I.1and Ethics VII.6)." ST II-IIae Q.64


~Sternhauser

Edited January 2, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='01 January 2010 - 09:52 PM' timestamp='1262400745' post='2028300']
You ARE the guy who said that the state should not use "aggression" against criminals, right? (With "aggression" being defined as "putting them in handcuffs and bringing them to the station".) I am absolutely baffled as to why it's wrong to put a criminal in prison but totally fine to murder an abortionist.
[/quote]

That is not what I said. I said the State necessarily operates through aggression, and that for that reason, the institution is immoral.

[url="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/aggression"]http://dictionary.re...owse/aggression[/url]

~Sternhauser

Edited January 2, 2010 by Sternhauser

[HisChildForever]

In the other thread, you sure were quick to critisize me for "dodging" your questions. Yet here you are, doing the exact same thing you claimed I was doing to you.

For the second time I am going to ask you:
If you had the opportunity to kill an abortionist, would you?

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='01 January 2010 - 10:11 PM' timestamp='1262401866' post='2028308']
In the other thread, you sure were quick to critisize me for "dodging" your questions. Yet here you are, doing the exact same thing you claimed I was doing to you.

For the second time I am going to ask you:
If you had the opportunity to kill an abortionist, would you?
[/quote]

I'm not dodging it, HisChildForever, I'm refusing to answer it. I'll be very forthright about that fact.

~Sternhauser

Edited January 2, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Moosey]

Same thing

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Moosey' date='01 January 2010 - 10:19 PM' timestamp='1262402383' post='2028316']
Same thing
[/quote]

If you asked someone a question, and he chose to not respond, would you consider that "dodging the question?"

~Sternhauser

Edited January 2, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Jaime]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='01 January 2010 - 10:21 PM' timestamp='1262402512' post='2028317']
If you asked someone a question, and he chose to not respond, would you consider that "dodging the question?"

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Yup

It is not morally permissable to kill an abortionist.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='01 January 2010 - 10:18 PM' timestamp='1262402314' post='2028314']
I'm not dodging it, HisChildForever, I'm refusing to answer it. I'll be very forthright about that fact.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Why are you refusing to answer it?

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='01 January 2010 - 10:23 PM' timestamp='1262402627' post='2028319']
Why are you refusing to answer it?
[/quote]

The answer to that question, too, is not your business.

~Sternhauser

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='01 January 2010 - 10:24 PM' timestamp='1262402697' post='2028322']
The answer to that question, too, is not your business.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Um, then why did you storm in here demanding to know why killing abortionists should be condemned? Why bother participating in this thread or continuing that kind of debate if you refuse to answer the questions asked of you?

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='01 January 2010 - 10:27 PM' timestamp='1262402843' post='2028324']
Um, then why did you storm in here demanding to know why killing abortionists should be condemned? Why bother participating in this thread or continuing that kind of debate if you refuse to answer the questions asked of you?
[/quote]

Because my personal view is absolutely immaterial to the objective status of whether the killing of an abortionist is moral or not.

~Sternhauser

[Jaime]

[quote][b]2258 [/b]"[i]Human life is sacred[/i] because from its beginningit involves the creative action of God and it remains for ever in aspecial relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end. God aloneis the Lord of life from its beginning until its end: no one can underany circumstance claim for himself the right directly to destroy aninnocent human being."[/quote]

Unless your personal view goes against Church teaching