Teaching Muslim Children To Hate The Jews

[HisChildForever]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo&feature=player_embedded[/media]

Unfortunately, this particular program goes against the station's mission statement:

[quote]
Iqraa Channel seeks to build a modern Muslim society that truly believes in and loves God and His Prophet Muhammad, acts upon the Qur’an and the Prophetic Tradition and follows in the righteous Muslim ancestors’ lead. Iqraa Channel aims to help Muslims apply the teachings of Islam [b]that call for tolerance and for addressing others mildly[/b]; a Muslim society whose members will be able to positively interact both on the local and international levels. [b]Iqraa Channel also aims at presenting the true moderate face of Islam to people in the West where media does not present an objective view on the Islamic Law.[/b][/quote]

http://freetvonline.blogspot.com/2008/05/iqra-tv_01.html

[Vincent Vega]

It's unfortunate that hate still exists in our world, and not just Muslims hating Jews...but Jews hating Muslims, Christians hating Muslims, Muslims hating Christians, Christians hating Jews, Hindus hating Muslims, and so on and so forth.

It's even more unfortunate that there are those who still teach hate.

[HisChildForever]

Christians who hate others are not following the teachings of Christ.

Anyway, I hate to get off-topic. This thread is about the above video.

[KeenanParkerII]

[quote]Anyway, I hate to get off-topic.[/quote]

Stop hating hater.

Originally Islam was somewhat tolerant of Christians and Jews. Their intent was expansion, not extermination. The concept of Dhimmah, taxation of non-Muslims, allowed Christians and Jews to live and partake in the Ummah (community)together. However, the fragments have always split off from the Muslim majority and promoted messages of hate and extermination, even in the first few decades after Muhammad. I think the problem lies in the chaotic nature of Qur'an interpretation. There is no uniformity of message like we see in the Bible. Later passages which contradict earlier passages are said to take precedence as "God can change his mind", so people can act on any violent statement in the Qur'an so long as they are completely convinced they can't find a later message which contradicts it. It's a chronological loophole developed to make it seem divine..

There's a systematic problem in the very structure of the religion which will always allow for violence and destruction. I'm taking 3 credits in Classical Islamic Civilization right now, and it's really eye opening. We have a Muslim professor, and we reject the old orientalist biases, but I'll still leave this course with a much better understanding of why Islam is wrong. You know the Ka'bah (the black stone cube at Mecca) was originally a pagan construct. The Qur'aysh would charge pilgrims to see it and pay homage to all the spirits inside it. It was only later asserted to be built by Abraham in order to keep the rather lucrative pilgrimage industry thriving under Muhammad's control.

Alright, now I'm just taking crackshots at Islam so I'll stop now.

Edited February 18, 2010 by KeenanParkerII

[KeenanParkerII]

BTW, this video is disgusting.

Edited February 18, 2010 by KeenanParkerII

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='KeenanParkerII' date='18 February 2010 - 04:04 PM' timestamp='1266523452' post='2058884']
You know the Ka'bah (the black stone cube at Mecca) was originally a pagan construct. The Qur'aysh would charge pilgrims to see it and pay homage to all the spirits inside it. It was only later asserted to be built by Abraham in order to keep the rather lucrative pilgrimage industry thriving under Muhammad's control.

[/quote]

I have had many Muslim professors. If yours teaches you like this, you should ask for your money back.

[KeenanParkerII]

Teaches like what exactly? You can find that little bit of information in Marshall G. S. Hodgeson's [i]The Venture of islam[/i], which is the foremost text on Orientalism. My professor attained his PhD at McGill, published works on South Asia, Central Asia and the Middle East, and organized joint study programs with the university of Tehran and Al Akhawayn University and teaches SFU's upper level courses. He's running Western Canada's preeminent census on Islamic populations and works in tandem with professional orientalists and Qur'an reciters at UBC. He's lived in 13 Islamic countries.. I think you'll be hard pressed to find a man with more Tenure than Dr. Maclean.

The Ka'bah was a pagan structure. It predates Muhammad by at least 400 years, but probably much further back, first written on by Ptolemy of Alexandria. The four months of truce, instituted by the Quraysh tribe, who dominated Mecca by an economic federation knowl as the Ahlaf, were a time for desert dwelling bedouin to visit the Ka'bah, the Zamzam and other holy sites, and it was the only means by which Meccans made profit since they wouldn't establish proper trade routes with Syria until the 6th century.

Muhammad didn't begin emphasizing the importance of the Ka'bah until after the Hijra (flight to Medina) and far after the battle of Badr, as indicated by the fact that prior to that Muslims prayed in the direction of Jerusalem. It was only after he established the economic mechanism of his newly established Ummah that Muhammad decided to conquer Mecca and reinforce the Hajj. Yes, he attended the Hajj once himself prior to his conquest of Mecca, but the actual conquest of Mecca and its purpose was suspect. I can get into the pretenses if you are interested, but I'm trying to find sources for my paper right now. I'm sure you can find some material on it on jstore or w.e academic database.

My professor is really quite good, and I am no slouch when it comes to school, so I don't know why you would say such things.

[Lilllabettt]

The problem is your professor is not a devout Muslim.

No devout Muslim would ever suggest that the al-Kaʿbah is a fake job.

Learning Islam from a skeptical Muslim is like learning Catholicism from a skeptical Catholic.

All you will get is pure mush.

I was taught (am being taught) by the most famous living Islamic philosopher in the world, Seyyed Nasr. He teaches that it is impossible to find philosophical truth apart from God.

This is what he says about scholars like your professor:

[quote]One of the features which characterize modern man is that he seeks to reform everything from social to economic to religious traditions, but rarely is he willing to reform himself. This whole attitude, by which temporal conditions become the criteria for the judgment of the truth itself, is a heritage of the European Renaissance, in which man becomes the measure of all things.In the 18th/19th century, belief in a false idol known as progress spread, leading many in the East to equate change with progress. They equate immutability of the truth with ossification and petrifaction. There emerged two competing educational systems, creating a chasm in the Islamic world between the Western educated minority and a majority on both the popular and intellectual levels rooted in traditional Islam, so that sometimes two men belonging to the same country speaking the same language cannot understand each other.[/quote]

[KeenanParkerII]

Fake job? What are you talking about?

We're discussing the history of Islamic civilization, not the religion. I don't know how they explain the Ka'bah, but it's a pre-Islamic Bedouin structure. I'm quite happy my professor is a historian before he is a Muslim, at least in a classroom context. Perhaps Seyyed Nasr needs to pick up a history book. This is not the realm of philosophy..

There is no throne in the Ka'bah Lillabet. It is hollow for a reason, to house the various spiritual artifacts of the bedouin tribes, each which was believed to have a personal deity. I don't know what you mean by fake job? The nice part about having Islam develop in the 7th century is that we have a good historical basis for it.

[HisChildForever]

Lilllabettt,

Do you have any comment on the video I posted? Specifically, the woman claiming that this is what it means to be a "true Muslim" (to call the Jews "apes and pigs") and using the Qur'an to illustrate that this is what Allah desires?

[KeenanParkerII]

I was just thinking Lillabet. History is attempting to provide a physical, tangible reason for the violence we see associated with Islam, yet you are arguing against this. Are you then saying that there is a a spiritual cause of the violence we see associated with Islam? It seems like one is much more grave than the other?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='18 February 2010 - 06:29 PM' timestamp='1266535748' post='2059016']
The problem is your professor is not a devout Muslim.
[/quote]

How do you define "devout Muslim" and on what do you base this definition? After all, according to the Muslim television program posted above, a "true Muslim" is one who has hatred for the Jews and believes that their death is the will of Allah. The program is basing its definition of a "true Muslim" on the Qur'an.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='18 February 2010 - 07:29 PM' timestamp='1266535748' post='2059016']
The problem is your professor is not a devout Muslim.

No devout Muslim would ever suggest that the al-Kaʿbah is a fake job.

Learning Islam from a skeptical Muslim is like learning Catholicism from a skeptical Catholic.

All you will get is pure mush.

I was taught (am being taught) by the most famous living Islamic philosopher in the world, Seyyed Nasr. He teaches that it is impossible to find philosophical truth apart from God.

This is what he says about scholars like your professor:
[/quote]
It can be useful to have a teacher who is unbiased in regard to his subject matter. Maybe that is the difference between the 2 professors.

[Veridicus]

HCF, you post a lot about the issue of Islam.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='18 February 2010 - 07:21 PM' timestamp='1266538918' post='2059035']
HCF, you post a lot about the issue of Islam.
[/quote]

Would you like to discuss the video?

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='18 February 2010 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1266538259' post='2059030']
How do you define "devout Muslim" and on what do you base this definition?
[/quote]


This is a question that has troubled Islamic thinkers themselves from the beginning.

According to the Kharijites a Muslim who committed a grave sin would cease to be a Muslim; he could be killed.

The Murji’ah, on the other hand, said that verbally professing the most heterodox beliefs (such as tritheism) does not necessarily entail infidelity

The Isma’ilis and the Twelvers and other Shi'i think that the Imam (I mean [u]the[/u] Imam not an imam) is the infallible interpreter of the Word of God ([i]kalam[/i]), God preservers his interpretation from error. His interpretation is the correct one.

The Sufis say that a true Muslim is one who has transcended the material world (and the Sharia) through contemplation.

Take your pick. It's a diverse and vibrant intellectual cornucopia.

I think all interpretations of "true Islam" deserve serious consideration ... except those interpretations which are actually just cheap political beefs masquerading in religious dress. Do you know the Sufis consider that a form of blasphemy?

I didn't watch the video. I know what it is, some sick twisted deforming of an innocent child's mind. There are some real power-thirsty psychopaths in this world.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Lilllabettt

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='18 February 2010 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1266538459' post='2059032']
It can be useful to have a teacher who is unbiased in regard to his subject matter. Maybe that is the difference between the 2 professors.
[/quote]


There is no such thing as an "unbiased professor," especially where religion is concerned.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='18 February 2010 - 06:24 PM' timestamp='1266539071' post='2059036']
Would you like to discuss the video?
[/quote]

I think it speaks for itself.

[KeenanParkerII]

Didn't answer my questions, or my inferences for that matter. Besides, the Ka'bah is a historical structure before it is a religious structure, otherwise it wouldn't extend through a number of religious practices.

[quote]HCF, you post a lot about the issue of Islam.[/quote]

I wish more people were as devout in exposing the wrongs of the falsity that is Islam.

Edited February 19, 2010 by KeenanParkerII

[Veridicus]

[quote name='KeenanParkerII' date='18 February 2010 - 06:46 PM' timestamp='1266540394' post='2059046']
Didn't answer my questions, or my inferences for that matter. Besides, the Ka'bah is a historical structure before it is a religious structure, otherwise it wouldn't extend through a number of religious practices.
[/quote]

Similar criticisms could be leveled against Catholic traditions and its syncretism with the antecedent pagan culture that it was surrounded by while it grew and assimilated more people. Just playing devil's advocate to your point.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Veridicus