Nihil Obstat Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1295813397' post='2203490'] A stroke (even a mini one) would be an attack on the body. Certainly, no one is saying that Satan cannot [i]attack[/i] the body of a person, including Christians. Job was afflicted with sores. Someone else could experience blindness or depression or projectile vomiting. I'm not going to say that stuff can't happen. I [i]will[/i] say that I tend to be very skeptical when someone claims demonic involvement. I'm okay with sprinkling the holy water around and saying prayers, but I'm not likely to think that's what's really going on without some evidence that it isn't an example of paranoia (or whatever). During my brother's freshman year of college, he woke up one night and felt there was someone else in the room with him and his roommate. It freaked him out a bit, but he eventually went back to sleep. In the morning, his roommate told him, 'hey, I looked over at your bed last night, and it looked like there was this dark shadowy thing crouching over you." That was [i]before[/i] he told his roommate about what had happened. Kinda strange that they would both get the same bad vibes at the same time. I seriously doubt my brother is possessed. Doesn't mean I'm going to dismiss that as a fanciful story. A little extra prayer never hurt anyone. [/quote] Like we've said, there are intermediate steps between "everything is fine" and outright possession. Fr. Amorth speaks about demonic *oppression*, in which a person is harassed by demons, sometimes in precisely the way you described, or maybe through what we often think of as hauntings, etc.. In some ways you could call oppression a somewhat less advanced form of extraordinary demonic activity. Edited January 23, 2011 by Nihil Obstat
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295807241' post='2203444'] It's hard to argue with someone who is obsessively in love with his own incoherent system of thought. [/quote] iawts - because you are the inchoherent in my POV. I think your theology is the theology of nutcases!
Nihil Obstat Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295814542' post='2203502'] iawts - because you are the inchoherent in my POV. I think your theology is the theology of nutcases! [/quote] You have been unable to answer a number of strong arguments from Scripture.
Mark of the Cross Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295814542' post='2203502'] iawts - because you are the inchoherent in my POV. I think your theology is the theology of nutcases! [/quote] Bump [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1295813453' post='2203491'] Prayer for calm Please stop with the personal stuff. State your cases clearly and concisely or let it rest! [/quote]
MIKolbe Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295814542' post='2203502'] iawts - because you are the inchoherent in my POV. I think your theology is the theology of nutcases! [/quote] Easy on the mud-slinging, please....thanks.
Nihil Obstat Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 I'm getting kinda sick of this "nutcase" and "bat croutons" stuff.
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295814627' post='2203506'] You have been unable to answer a number of strong arguments from Scripture. [/quote] Your arguments show that demons can harm people. I've never read in scripture where a demon went into a person's body and made the person stab people, and the person was powerless to stop themselves. Even Judas Iscarot, after Satan entered him and he betrayed Jesus, could have changed his mind because Jesus still held him accountable for betraying him. A demon can't make you do anything you are not willing to do. Demonic possession and Hypnosis are two closely related things - the only reason why a person who is demonically possessed does evil things and believes they can't stop doing those evil things is because they believe they are not in control of their body. It is false, a lie, and outright bat croutons crazy. [b]The truth is the devil can't make your body do anything you don't want to do in the first place.[/b] The person has no recourse other than repentance, and closing off the thoughts that lead to that situation in the first place - because there is no excuse for being evil. If we can all agree with this - and say - while demons can inflict harm to a person's body through possession, they can not make my body do evil things to other people because I always have the power to not do those things, than we can walk away from this in a sensible way. But the choice is up to you.
Mark of the Cross Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1295813397' post='2203490'] During my brother's freshman year of college, he woke up one night and felt there was someone else in the room with him and his roommate. It freaked him out a bit, but he eventually went back to sleep. In the morning, his roommate told him, 'hey, I looked over at your bed last night, and it looked like there was this dark shadowy thing crouching over you." That was [i]before[/i] he told his roommate about what had happened. Kinda strange that they would both get the same bad vibes at the same time. I seriously doubt my brother is possessed. [/quote] The number of such cases pretty much presents proof of the existence of lost souls or demons roaming the earth. But I would think that is not the same as possession. Faith in Christ immunises you from possession but not these roaming spirits or temptations of the devil. 'With Jesus as my protector, the waves cannot wash over me, the winds cannot sweep me away.'
Mark of the Cross Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295815356' post='2203517'] . [b]The truth is the devil can't make your body do anything you don't want to do in the first place.[/b] [/quote] satan can and does exploit our weaknesses that's why we have to go to confession. A sinful practice can be almost impossible to overcome and require a great deal of prayer and Will to defeat as well as the saving grace of Jesus. The devil can therefore control your mind which is part of your body, it clearly does this with the mentally ill.
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1295815851' post='2203523'] satan can and does exploit our weaknesses that's why we have to go to confession. A sinful practice can be almost impossible to overcome and require a great deal of prayer and Will to defeat as well as the saving grace of Jesus. The devil can therefore control your mind which is part of your body, it clearly does this with the mentally ill. [/quote] I agree with this in a sense, but I always believe we have the choice to do what is right - there is no free ride for me in regards to this. If you sin - by doing whatever - where you believe a demon forced your body to stab people, or watch adult movies, or anything else, you were the one who did the act, you are guilty of that sin, because you have the power to decide not to do that. That's the whole crux of my beef with Stern, because to think a person's free will can be taken away from them while a demon possesses their body and goes on a killing rampage is not reality. It makes for great TV shows and movies, as we entertain the horror of losing control of your body from an outside entity in a story sense, it is not the truth, everybody has the ability to stop themselves while demonically possessed. The man who ran to Jesus who was possessed by a legion is the prime example of this - nothing can stop you from doing the right thing!
Nihil Obstat Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 Stern has responded with airtight arguments. I have nothing left to say to you.
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295816604' post='2203532'] Stern has responded with airtight arguments. I have nothing left to say to you. [/quote] Sorry, his arguments have so many holes it is unbelievable. The person who was possessed by legion could still run to Jesus - therefore they were never in complete control of him, while Judas who Satan entered into him continued down that path and betrayed Jesus, and Jesus said it would have been better if he were never born - so obviously, Judas had a choice in the matter, and choose the wrong thing. If you want to believe that a demon can take control of another person's body and make that body do things against the will of the person - than you are entitled too. As for me - If I started to believe that, I would personally put myself into observation because that's crazy. I believe it is a fairy tale. It would make an interesting story plot, but it isn't reality. Edited January 23, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295817044' post='2203544'] [/quote] That's what happens when you try to move the unmovable object - you just tire yourself out by doing this - !
Guest Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295814542' post='2203502'] iawts - because you are the inchoherent in my POV. I think your theology is the theology of nutcases! [/quote] Relax pimpin. You don't want to go there. Ease up or get pieced up. Church.
Tally Marx Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295816474' post='2203529'] That's the whole crux of my beef with Stern, because to think a person's free will can be taken away from them while a demon possesses their body and goes on a killing rampage is not reality. [/quote] Demonic obsession can happen to people who are good and holy (Padre Pio, for example) but I have never heard of a case when someone in a complete state of grace was outright and fully possessed. I had always heard and was always taught that satan could only possess you if you opened yourself up to it, because he cannot live in you if Christ does. I read the account of a woman who had been possessed as a child, and she said it happened right when she had become more angry than she had ever been before, had had any right to be. She opened herself up to being possessed. She, in a sense, [i]allowed[/i] herself to be possessed. Viewed this way, her free will was taken from her... in the same way reason is taken from a drunkard. It wasn't taken, but willingly given. That her free will was compromised, that a drunk cannot reason correctly, is not the question. It is a fact.
Nihil Obstat Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1295828878' post='2203605'] Demonic obsession can happen to people who are good and holy (Padre Pio, for example) but I have never heard of a case when someone in a complete state of grace was outright and fully possessed. I had always heard and was always taught that satan could only possess you if you opened yourself up to it, because he cannot live in you if Christ does. I read the account of a woman who had been possessed as a child, and she said it happened right when she had become more angry than she had ever been before, had had any right to be. She opened herself up to being possessed. She, in a sense, [i]allowed[/i] herself to be possessed. Viewed this way, her free will was taken from her... in the same way reason is taken from a drunkard. It wasn't taken, but willingly given. That her free will was compromised, that a drunk cannot reason correctly, is not the question. It is a fact. [/quote] Fr. Amorth distinguishes between oppression, possession, and obsession. Obsession usually occurs in cases where a person has intentionally opened themselves up to it, though not always. Like the word obsession implies, it consists of strange and disturbing thoughts in one's head that go well beyond regular temptation, voices, etc.. If I had to speculate, the line between obsession and oppression is probably not well defined.
Sternhauser Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1295828878' post='2203605'] Demonic obsession can happen to people who are good and holy (Padre Pio, for example) but I have never heard of a case when someone in a complete state of grace was outright and fully possessed. I had always heard and was always taught that satan could only possess you if you opened yourself up to it, because he cannot live in you if Christ does. I read the account of a woman who had been possessed as a child, and she said it happened right when she had become more angry than she had ever been before, had had any right to be. She opened herself up to being possessed. She, in a sense, [i]allowed[/i] herself to be possessed. Viewed this way, her free will was taken from her... in the same way reason is taken from a drunkard. It wasn't taken, but willingly given. That her free will was compromised, that a drunk cannot reason correctly, is not the question. It is a fact. [/quote] Fr. Gabriele Amorth, Rome's chief exorcist, explicitly says in his book that while rare, people can become possessed through absolutely no fault of their own. That it is not always necessary for the individual to "open any door" or allow the demon in. ~Sternhauser
Sternhauser Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295830501' post='2203613'] Fr. Amorth distinguishes between oppression, possession, and obsession. Obsession usually occurs in cases where a person has intentionally opened themselves up to it, though not always. Like the word obsession implies, it consists of strange and disturbing thoughts in one's head that go well beyond regular temptation, voices, etc.. If I had to speculate, the line between obsession and oppression is probably not well defined. [/quote] Exactly. Just as the line between "hilarity" and "drunkenness" is not well defined. (At least not to human comprehension.) ~Sternhauser
Tally Marx Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295830501' post='2203613'] Fr. Amorth distinguishes between oppression, possession, and obsession. Obsession usually occurs in cases where a person has intentionally opened themselves up to it, though not always. Like the word obsession implies, it consists of strange and disturbing thoughts in one's head that go well beyond regular temptation, voices, etc.. If I had to speculate, the line between obsession and oppression is probably not well defined. [/quote] Alright. I had always heard the word "obsession" in place of "oppression". To me, they are the same thing. ...I must admit I am not knowledgeable when it comes to possession, obsession, etc.
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