Clapping In Mass

[dUSt]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1302901112' post='2229016']
Lex Orandi Lex Credendi. If the Traditional Latin Mass were celebrated everywhere the way it is celebrated now, 99% of liturgical abuse would disappear, and the average Catholic would know far more about his faith.
[/quote]
Oh, I agree with this statement for sure. My point was that if the Traditional Latin Mass was the norm, we both know that it certainly would [b]not[/b] be celebrated everywhere the way it is now.

[Winchester]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1302898972' post='2228996']
In pursuit of intellectual percision/honesty and clarity, he said that as a Cardinal, not as Pope Benedict XVI.

Though I absolutely agree.

I had the priviledge of being politely accosted (after Mass) by a parent of one of the children in the children's choir for not clapping. That was fun.
[/quote]
I hope it was in the Church and a woman, cause then you could tell her she should be silent and really watch some fireworks.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1302901112' post='2229016']
Lex Orandi Lex Credendi. If the Traditional Latin Mass were celebrated everywhere the way it is celebrated now, 99% of liturgical abuse would disappear, and the average Catholic would know far more about his faith.

[/quote]

I have to disagree with you. Back when the Traditional Latin Mass was the norm, liturgical abuse abounded as well. Likely not so much by clergy, but definitely by the people. I cannot count the number of times I have heard older Catholics tell me about how they used to pray the rosary during Mass. THAT is an abuse. One is to participate in the Mass by following along with the prayers and singing/reciting them at the proper times. No excuse considering even then they had latin/english missals.

Also, this carptastic lack of catechesis we see everywhere started looong before V2. The NO Mass has nothing to do with the Church doing a lousy job of teaching her children for the last 70 years.

I love the Traditional Latin Mass, but simply having the Traditional Latin Mass is not the solution....

Edited April 15, 2011 by Groo the Wanderer

[Sarah147]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1302896645' post='2228970']
Clapping during Mass is completely inappropriate.
[img]http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv189/Nihil_Obstat/n1311204347_126353_8292.jpg[/img]
[/quote]


Woa. A w esome.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1302901326' post='2229017']
i haven't had the privilege of attending a Traditional Latin Mass, so correct me if I'm wrong but... isn't the entire Mass (besides homily?) in Latin? If that were the only Mass I ever went to, it would be hard for me to learn a lot.
[/quote]
I used to think so too, but there's two things about that.

First of all, on a more immediate level, translations are provided. Everyone gets lost at first, and it takes a bit of practice, but after a while it's not hard at all. It took me about four or five tries to not get lost anymore. The prayers are extremely edifying; more-so than those of the Novus Ordo. They are theologically rich and trascendent.
On a deeper level though, it's not necessarily about literally following along, in a strict sense. For instance, almost the entirety of the Canon is said in a low voice by the priest, which the congregation cannot hear. The idea isn't exactly for you to follow along word for word, because the priest offers those prayers on the behalf of his congregation. It's more about uniting your own prayers with his, as he purifies them through the Holy Sacrifice and offers them for you. That sense has been mostly lost lately in the Novus Ordo, which I think is regrettable. So with that understanding, simply being present, uniting your own personal prayers with the priest, and participating interiorly with the Mass offers far more grace than you might realize. To follow word for word is great, but that is not the limit of participation. There's so much more to it than that.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1302902979' post='2229040']
I used to think so too, but there's two things about that.

First of all, on a more immediate level, translations are provided. Everyone gets lost at first, and it takes a bit of practice, but after a while it's not hard at all. It took me about four or five tries to not get lost anymore. The prayers are extremely edifying; more-so than those of the Novus Ordo. They are theologically rich and trascendent.
On a deeper level though, it's not necessarily about literally following along, in a strict sense. For instance, almost the entirety of the Canon is said in a low voice by the priest, which the congregation cannot hear. The idea isn't exactly for you to follow along word for word, because the priest offers those prayers on the behalf of his congregation. It's more about uniting your own prayers with his, as he purifies them through the Holy Sacrifice and offers them for you. That sense has been mostly lost lately in the Novus Ordo, which I think is regrettable. So with that understanding, simply being present, uniting your own personal prayers with the priest, and participating interiorly with the Mass offers far more grace than you might realize. To follow word for word is great, but that is not the limit of participation. There's so much more to it than that.
[/quote]

In Traditional Latin Mass the priest stands facing away from the congregation, correct? I was reading an article by a priest about celebrating mass this way, it was really interesting.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Years back I was at a Mass in which people started clapping about something (I don't remember what exactly) which inspired Fr Benedict Groeschel to get on the mic and give an unintentionally funny chastisement. Only he can get away with saying things like "shaddap!" and "knock it off!"

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1302898972' post='2228996']
I had the priviledge of being politely accosted (after Mass) by a parent of one of the children in the children's choir for not clapping. That was fun.
[/quote]
Did you suggest to her just precisely out of which orifice she should blow it?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1302901519' post='2229022']
Oh, I agree with this statement for sure. My point was that if the Traditional Latin Mass was the norm, we both know that it certainly would [b]not[/b] be celebrated everywhere the way it is now.
[/quote]
You are right, people could be saying the rosary or reading books, the priest could be racing thru the mass or mumbling so you hears absolutely nothing, people could be standing around all during mass waiting for confession, plus you can actually hear the people confessing, you could be hearing the exact same 10 hymns every week, you could hear the bells ring and ushers would appear from their smoke break outside, many people wouldn't go to communion because the fast had started at midnight the night before and it was noon.

Mass abuse is not new.

[Wikitiki]

Oh man, this happens all the time. And whenever I just quietly keep my hands down my mom glares at me like I'm booing or something.

Edited April 16, 2011 by Wikitiki

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1302903594' post='2229046']
In Traditional Latin Mass the priest stands facing away from the congregation, correct? I was reading an article by a priest about celebrating mass this way, it was really interesting.
[/quote]
That's correct, and IMO a far better way to do things.
In fact the rubrics for the Novus Ordo assume this orientation as well.

The problem with our versus populum orientation that makes up the majority of Masses is that it creates a circle in which the priest and the congregation address each other. The focus becomes some abstract idea of "the community", or worst still the celebrant himself (or, as it's fashionable but incorrect to say now, the 'presider'). When oriented ad orientem, the priest is now clearly at the head of the congregation, and obviously offering prayers *on their behalf*. It's no longer speaking to each other, but the priest going up to God for us.
This actually happens in a rather literal sense. Look at this part from the prayers at the foot of the altar from the Traditional Latin Mass:
"S.And I will go in unto the Altar of God: unto God, Who giveth joy to my youth."
The priest acts as an alter Christus, an other Christ. When he ascends the altar, he takes with him our prayers, and purifies them through the Sacrifice. He is in a very real sense taking our prayers up to heaven on our behalf.

[Aloysius]

praying the rosary during mass is not an abuse. it's not the most advisable thing, and should generally be discouraged, but it's a pious practice that is indeed a means by which some people delved deeper into the mass. I have prayed a rosary during mass, and felt that it brought me deeper into the mass.

the rosary is a meditative prayer. do the hail mary's distract you from the mystery you're meditating on? two levels, the hail mary's, and the mystery. praying a rosary in mass, you meditate upon the mass connected to the mystery... nothing like seeing the infant Jesus lifted above the altar in the Eucharist as you meditate upon the nativity in the rosary.

not something you should do every time, but there are many many ways to enter deeper into the mysteries of the mass. while it is generally discouraged, i find it distasteful to scoff at the practice like it was terrible, like it could even be categorized in near the same category as an "abuse". people who pray the rosary at mass are generally capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time, they're not just ignoring the mass.

[Nihil Obstat]

Going to confession during Mass also used to be extremely common (back from the days when the Eucharist was received rarely, and only directly after confession), and the rumours in the wind indicate that maybe we'll be seeing a bit more of it in the future. . .

[Aloysius]

not to detract from the topic. I just don't think we should totally condemn people who pray a rosary during mass.

I really don't like clappng in mass, though if there are occassional exceptions, fine. I mean, I've been in a mass before where I did feel the impetus to clap... but it was like a kneejerk thing, like when you get the impetus to genuflect in a movie theatre and then you realize how stupid you look. but basically, Benedict's quote about clapping gives a very deep point which is at the heart of the liturgical crisis in the Church--the spirit of true liturgy is swapped for religious entertainment. ultimately, regardless of the books being used, the army of people "putting on the show" is going to harm whatever liturgy is put out there until it is unrecognizable for what it was meant to be.

it's an entire atmosphere that is foreign to the liturgy that pervades in so many places... clapping is an indicator that people are in that atmosphere. ultimately, liturgical music and liturgical practice should make all the people involved, the cantors and the lectors and the priests, be overshadowed by the mass. when you're clapping for the cantor, the cantor hasn't faded into the background of the liturgical worship, but has stood in the foreground of a reliigous entertainment show.

[Nihil Obstat]

I have to wonder... would you clap during Mass if Jesus Christ were seated on a throne in the Sanctuary, with light streaming down from His wounds? With the angels surrounding Him singing Sanctus!, and with Him staring straight into your soul, burning away your sin?
Would we chat before Mass, or even (I shudder every single time) at the sign of peace? Would we let the Canedo-fools play guitar solos in the middle of a jazzy Gospel number?
Would we let the trite, shallow feel-good tunes of Marty Haugen greet Him, or would we demand the distinct, beautiful, prayerful Chants of our rite?
Wouldn't we fall flat on our faces and cry "Domine, non sum dignus!", and wouldn't we rather die the most horrific death rather than let Him be disrespected?

...and yet, He is there.

[img]http://www.iconsexplained.com/iec/lib/00058_christ_pantocrator_mosaic_hagia_sophia_492x600.jpg[/img]

[AudreyGrace]

the direction this thread is going reminded me of this video, which i think in some ways can sum up a majority of the debates here on PM

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1FOOto-JpU[/media]

[MeteorShower]

At the church I attend, the only time we clap is when there are baptisms. Would that be considered disrespectful?
Besides that thought, we never clap. Except one time (It was either Easter or Christmas when the church was overflowing with "Christmas Catholics" as the priest calls them) and they all clapped after the homily. The priest was like... It was rather awkward.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='MeteorShower' timestamp='1302960699' post='2229221']
At the church I attend, the only time we clap is when there are baptisms. Would that be considered disrespectful?
Besides that thought, we never clap. Except one time (It was either Easter or Christmas when the church was overflowing with "Christmas Catholics" as the priest calls them) and they all clapped after the homily. The priest was like... It was rather awkward.
[/quote]
I don't believe it's appropriate to clap after a baptism either. Like I said, there's a time and a place. We can clap at a reception after Mass. During Mass, we're worshiping God.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1302960290' post='2229220']
the direction this thread is going reminded me of this video, which i think in some ways can sum up a majority of the debates here on PM

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1FOOto-JpU[/media]
[/quote]
Someone needs to give that "traditionalist" a drink. Trads drink a lot more hard liquor than that.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1302900241' post='2229010']
I don't mean to pick on you or anything; I can tell that you intend only to honour God, so I'm not questioning your motivation, but I do question whether clapping is ever appropriate in the context of Mass.
[/quote]

Well we tend to usually disagree on things But ... the good thing is that we can agree to disagree! (And I usually refrain from posting because I expect a storm of posts).

I do get your point though ... although I will say one thing. The day the new spanish choir nails a song, I will clap -- because it will be a major improvement to the beauty of the liturgy!

Don't worry -- that'll take a few years at least.

Oh ... AG -- loved the video. I wished I was as bad as Stanford then I'd say ooh-- that's me. But no he's over board. By 10000s. So is Bill. By millions.

Edited April 16, 2011 by cmariadiaz