dUSt Posted April 20, 2011 Posted April 20, 2011 In the example I cited, the clapping was not for "a great homily". I've heard many great homilies, and I think silent reflection on that homily is the best and most reverent option. The example I cited was more of a show of support and solidarity for fixing our parish. You have to understand the situation--a new priest going out on a limb and taking a huge chance of being run out of the parish by some very liberal folks. The clapping was a confirmation that his bravery was not being ignored. That a good majority of the parish truly did desire authentic Catholicism. I don't know. Maybe it was wrong. I'm only saying it's not always so clear. The church has not really taken a stance on this. The B16 quote is amesome, but notice it does distinguish clapping "for human achievement". It's not really a condemnation of ALL clapping. Of course, more church teaching on this matter is certainly welcome if someone has the time to research.
Papist Posted April 20, 2011 Posted April 20, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1303316685' post='2230541'] In the example I cited, the clapping was not for "a great homily". I've heard many great homilies, and I think silent reflection on that homily is the best and most reverent option. The example I cited was more of a show of support and solidarity for fixing our parish. You have to understand the situation--a new priest going out on a limb and taking a huge chance of being run out of the parish by some very liberal folks. The clapping was a confirmation that his bravery was not being ignored. That a good majority of the parish truly did desire authentic Catholicism. I don't know. Maybe it was wrong. I'm only saying it's not always so clear. The church has not really taken a stance on this. The B16 quote is amesome, but notice it does distinguish clapping "for human achievement". It's not really a condemnation of ALL clapping. Of course, more church teaching on this matter is certainly welcome if someone has the time to research. [/quote] You speak as if the only place to show your confirmation that his bravery was not being ignored is during Mass. As I stated before, could it not wait until after Mass and you express to him personally your appreciation. That would mean a lot to him. Also, he may not want you to clap during Mass, especially if he is orthodox as you say.
dUSt Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1303329049' post='2230610'] You speak as if the only place to show your confirmation that his bravery was not being ignored is during Mass. [/quote] Oh, I do? Can you show me where I lead you to believe this? It will help me better communicate in the future.
Lil Red Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 perhaps a more lasting show of support would be to write a letter to the bishop and the priest? if people are upset about his orthodoxy, most likely those people wrote letters to the bishop.
Cam42 Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 [img]http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv189/Nihil_Obstat/n1311204347_126353_8292.jpg[/img] What he said.... No need to go further. It is incredibly clear.
Brother Adam Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1303409229' post='2230890'] [img]http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv189/Nihil_Obstat/n1311204347_126353_8292.jpg[/img] What he said.... No need to go further. It is incredibly clear. [/quote] Does this mean dUSt has to give up his webmaster tag and moderation powers for disagreeing with the pope?
MIKolbe Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1303415499' post='2230898'] Does this mean dUSt has to give up his webmaster tag and moderation powers for disagreeing with the pope? [/quote] [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1302901381' post='2229020'] Also, I completely agree with B16 in that image you posted. [/quote] umm.. yeah.
Brother Adam Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1303415819' post='2230900'] umm.. yeah. [/quote] A good number of faithful Catholics lost their tags for less.
dUSt Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 The nice picture with the big fonts that has been posted several times has a quote on it. I have a copy of The Spirit of the Liturgy by Joseph Ratzinger, from which that quote was copied. First, I completely agree with the image. Second, I am not talking about [i]applause for human achievement[/i]. Third, when read in context, that quote was in the section of the book that was talking about liturgical dance. [quote]It is totally absurd to try to make the liturgy "attractive" by introducing dancing pantomimes (wherever possible performed by professional dance troupes), which frequently (and rightly, from the professionals' point of view) end with applause. [i]Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment.[/i] Such attractiveness fades quickly--it cannot compete in the market of leisure pursuits, incorporating as it increasingly does various forms of religious titillation. I myself have experienced the replacing of the penitential rite by a dance performance, which, needless to say, received a round of applause. Could there be anything farther removed from true penitence?[/quote] So, before anyone starts to use the pretty Photoshop image as their infallible document proving my infidelity to the pope, I implore you to try to find something a bit more official (and one that I don't actually agree with). Find something that does not single out applause for human achievement or entertainment. I want you to find it, because I would love to take something to my priest about not allowing applause during the liturgy. But, until you do, please don't act as if it is such a black and white case closed issue. Also, someone should send that image to the pope, because when he celebrated mass here in the United States, there was many, many times when applause broke out, and I saw the pope looking out over the crowd smiling. According to some of you, I should be convinced that he was smiling because "the essence of liturgy had totally disappeared". Is this the point that you were trying to make? That the pope smiles when the essence of the liturgy disappears? That's an odd way to show your own fidelity.
dUSt Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1303409229' post='2230890'] No need to go further. It is incredibly clear. [/quote] Yes, thank you. It is incredibly clear that we should not applaud for [b]human achievement[/b]. This argument ended back on page 1. We are now on page 5. Now we're discussing applause for reasons [b]other than[/b] human achievement. Thanks.
Selah Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 One time during the confirmation service, when my grandmother was younger, these two ladies behind her kept making noise...not really clapping, but being just rude and obnoxious during the service. She turned around and yelled, "How in the hell would you like to shut the hell up!" Probably wasn't the...most...reverent way of doing that, but they shut up the rest of the service! So, win win...I guess.
Lil Red Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 [quote name='Selah' timestamp='1303419935' post='2230927'] One time during the confirmation service, when my grandmother was younger, these two ladies behind her kept making noise...not really clapping, but being just rude and obnoxious during the service. She turned around and yelled, "How in the hell would you like to shut the hell up!" Probably wasn't the...most...reverent way of doing that, but they shut up the rest of the service! So, win win...I guess. [/quote] bwahahahahaha
Groo the Wanderer Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1303193277' post='2230098'] Why hasn't anybody commented on if they agree with me on this or not? I need support or denouncement. I'll take either. [/quote] Support +1
Cam42 Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1303418436' post='2230923'] Yes, thank you. It is incredibly clear that we should not applaud for [b]human achievement[/b]. This argument ended back on page 1. We are now on page 5. Now we're discussing applause for reasons [b]other than[/b] human achievement. Thanks. [/quote] Still not appropriate. The point the Holy Father was pretty clear that clapping for whatever reason takes away from the sacrificial action and renders it something akin to the human. The Mass is not about the actions or the intended actions of any one person, regardless of the nobility of said action. Clapping is not an appropriate expression of appreication for any action of the Mass. The point he's making in the book is specifically regarding liturgical dance, but as has been shown here, it can apply to other occurences. Changing something even if for the good of the Church, or bringing something back in line with what the Mass intended is not worthy of applause, it is an expectation. It is like saying that we should clap everytime a person stops at a stop sign or everytime a child fulfills his chores. So, to clap because the new pastor is going to bring the Mass back to something that is proper is commendable, but if the parish is clapping, they are clapping for the priest and his actions and it is still on a human level. There is nothing holy in that. To celebrate the priests actions can be done after Mass in the hall over coffee and pie, not during the homily. Really, the priest shouldn't be preaching about that stuff anyways, he should be preaching the Gospel. To make a statement about how things are going to be done can be made after Holy Communion or can be expressed in the bulletin, or can be stated at a "town hall" meeting. The homily is for the preaching to and teaching of his parish. Finally, as an action which happened within the Mass, show me the rubric where it says that the faithful should be clapping at anything? Do the red, say the black. So, no clapping is not appropriate.
dUSt Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1303415948' post='2230902'] A good number of faithful Catholics lost their tags for less. [/quote] Methinks you only hear one side of the story.
dUSt Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1303422542' post='2230945'] So, no clapping is not appropriate. [/quote] Thank you, I understand your points and agree. Can you explain to me why the pope was smiling during the applause when he celebrated mass here in the U.S.?
franciscanheart Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 Our priest sometimes starts us clapping, like when we welcome people into the church. << Just like that.
Cam42 Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1303422825' post='2230950'] Thank you, I understand your points and agree. Can you explain to me why the pope was smiling during the applause when he celebrated mass here in the U.S.? [/quote] Have you never smiled when you were disgusted with anything? I don't know, I'm not a mind reader. Just because the Pope smiled, doesn't mean that he approves. Perhaps he was feining appreciation....but I refuse to speculate any further. I will simply point you back to the rubrics. If it's not in the rubrics, it shouldn't be done.
dUSt Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 What about this document from the USCCB website which has a place for applause during the liturgy? [quote]After the prayer of blessing, each catechist may be presented with a Bible, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and/or a certificate of commissioning.[b] If desirable, the congregation may signify its support by applause[/b], an acclamation, or an appropriate hymn.[/quote] http://www.usccb.org/catecheticalsunday/2010/commissioning-service.pdf
Cam42 Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1303423723' post='2230962'] What about this document from the USCCB website which has a place for applause during the liturgy? http://www.usccb.org/catecheticalsunday/2010/commissioning-service.pdf [/quote] The USCCB has no authority to make any pronouncement without the approval from the Holy See. They are not a governing body. I don't see where there is any [i]recognitio[/i] from the Holy See...
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