Purifying Vessels At Mass

[Jaime]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1308627557' post='2256658']
Got any references to back this up? Honestly curious. Would search myself, but am multitasking on getting 10 computers refurbed for computer camp and writing 25 mini-lessons on Catholic Basics for Confirmation this year.
[/quote]

No problem Groo

[quote]Upon returning to the altar, the priest collects any fragments that may remain. Then, standing at the altar or at the credence table, he purifies the paten or ciborium over the chalice then purifies the chalice, saying quietly, [i]Quod ore sumpsimus (Lord, may I receive)[/i], and dries the chalice with a purificator. [/quote]

That's from 163 of the GIRM. Since the GIRM is prescriptive (it tells us what is allowed) vs proscriptive (it tells us what we can't do) we can safely assume that ONLY a purificator can be used to wipe the Chalice

[Cam42]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1308627419' post='2256657']
Actually Cam, what you quoted supports my point and that of my Pastor. Both documents state that an EMHC cannot assist in the purification of the vessels. This we ALL agree on. The point of confoosion was whether wiping is part of purifying. As stated in the GIRM sections I quoted earlier, it is not. Hence there is no issue with an EMHC or altar server wiping the vessels AFTER they have been purified.

Also you boo-booed above when you said "The purifying of vessels is not allowed for laymen." Acolytes are laymen. Acolytes may purify. Hence some laymen can purify the vessels.
[/quote]


Well, Groo...you're now changing the conditions of the argument aren't you. We were talking about the boy assisting the priest by finishing the purification process, but now all of a sudden we're talking about wiping out a chalice once it is has been properly purified (which includes wiping out the cup after the ablutions have been poured and consumed). There is no mention of the action being after Mass in the sacristy yadda, yadda, yadda....

As for the acolytes are laymen thing....you're right.

[Cam42]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308628024' post='2256662']
No problem Groo



That's from 163 of the GIRM.
[/quote]


Pretty sure you stole that one from me....lulz!!!!!

[Groo the Wanderer]

gah! must make myself clearer...

I actually was asking where it said that only clergy + acolytes can touch a purificator. I know the sacristan can as well, since they set out all the linens and vessels. I would think the altar servers could too since they bring the vessels and cloths from the credence table to the altar....

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308628153' post='2256664']
Well, Groo...you're now changing the conditions of the argument aren't you. We were talking about the boy assisting the priest by finishing the purification process, but now all of a sudden we're talking about wiping out a chalice once it is has been properly purified
[/quote]


nah that was changed a long time ago in the thread.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1308628250' post='2256666']
gah! must make myself clearer...

I actually was asking where it said that only clergy + acolytes can touch a purificator. I know the sacristan can as well, since they set out all the linens and vessels. I would think the altar servers could too since they bring the vessels and cloths from the credence table to the altar....



[/quote]

Well ok

Anybody can touch a cleaned purificator. Only clergy or acolytes can use one. Appropriate people (select laypersons or nuns) can wash the linens. Does that sound reasonable?

and upon further reflection, I'm going to retract my statement about the altar server talking to the priest. I think the parents should talk to the priest and get the issue resolved properly. The boy shouldn't have to be in the position to correct an adult.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308629968' post='2256683']
and upon further reflection, I'm going to retract my statement about the altar server talking to the priest. I think the parents should talk to the priest and get the issue resolved properly. The boy shouldn't have to be in the position to correct an adult.
[/quote]
Definitely. When I was younger I'd have been terrified to be put in such a position.

[Luigi]

[b]Post #1 - The Original Question [/b] ... from Galatians
My son is an altar server. At Daily Mass he was asked by the priest to dry the vessels after the priest purified them. Is this allowed? Thanks!

[b]Post #13 - Expert Opinion[/b] ... from Galatians
The priest (our pastor) is a Canon Lawyer, as is my Spiritual Director. I trust the latter implicitly and he tells me that as long as my son does not purify them in the sense of consuming what is left of the sacred species, there is no problem with him just drying the sacred vessels. I've just sent an e-mail to another solid priest who is a Canon Lawyer as well. I know him well enough that even if he tells me it's technically ok, he'll say that he doesn't like it. ... [/quote]

[b]Post #43 - Talking to the Priest[/b] ... from Galatians
He's [the son] not going to talk to the priest because he is ten. He has no idea that what he did today was wrong. This is up to me to deal with...

[b]Post #76 - Another County Heard From [/b] ... from Groo the Wanderer, quoting his pastor
It is fine for the the EMHCs to wipe/dry the Sacred Vessels after the Acolyte has purified them. Until the Magisterium rules otherwise or hands down a clarification, wiping is a separate action from purifying.

[b]Posts #86 & 87 - Phatmass' Conclusion[/b] ... from jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) and Nihil Obstat
and upon further reflection, I'm going to retract my statement about the altar server talking to the priest. I think the parents should talk to the priest and get the issue resolved properly. The boy shouldn't have to be in the position to correct an adult.
AND
Definitely. When I was younger I'd have been terrified to be put in such a position.

So by Post #13, Galatians had actually figured out the answer on her own, by consulting with her own experts - actual trained canon lawyers/priests who answer these sorts of questions all the time and who actually celebrate Mass. And she knew all along that her ten-year-old son should not be the one asking (or challenging, or confronting, or refusing, or declining) the priest about this, because she is a mother and she has [i]good sense[/i].

It only took the rest of the posters an additional [b]74 posts [/b]to come to the same conclusion!

It reminds me of baseball fans arguing vehemently about what the coach should do and why... even though they're not coaches themselves, have no training as coaches, never played pro ball, never played minor league, never played in college, .... shall I go on?

[Jaime]

Well that's not quite fair. I've only been in the discussion for an hour and helped bring order to the chaos.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1308632695' post='2256693']
It only took the rest of the posters an additional [b]74 posts [/b]to come to the same conclusion!

It reminds me of baseball fans arguing vehemently about what the coach should do and why... even though they're not coaches themselves, have no training as coaches, never played pro ball, never played minor league, never played in college, .... shall I go on?
[/quote]
You forgot about the part where we were talking about the wider issue, i.e. the entire situation surrounding the purification of the vessels. Do you honestly expect threads on a public forum to stay 100% on topic ever, for any reason? Not in the real world.

[Lil Red]

and never at phatmass.

[Luigi]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308633039' post='2256694']
Well that's not quite fair. I've only been in the discussion for an hour and helped bring order to the chaos.
[/quote]

Okay. You're right. And there was a whole,big, long, complicated, off-point argument in there, too.

My point is - why don't we just let the experts do the expert-ing?

And you get points for trying to bring order out of chaos. I can do it if I have to, but I prefer to walk away from the chaos.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1308633266' post='2256697']
I can do it if I have to, but I prefer to walk away from the chaos.
[/quote]
[img]http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/wp-content/uploads/spittake.jpg[/img]

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1308632695' post='2256693']

It only took the rest of the posters an additional [b]74 posts [/b]to come to the same conclusion!

[/quote]


LORF!

+125

[Cam42]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1308632695' post='2256693']

[...]

It only took the rest of the posters an additional [b]74 posts [/b]to come to the same conclusion!

It reminds me of baseball fans arguing vehemently about what the coach should do and why... even though they're not coaches themselves, have no training as coaches, never played pro ball, never played minor league, never played in college, .... shall I go on?
[/quote]

Except that I'm an installed acolyte and so is Groo. So, we do have a stake in this on a very real level. As for not having training....well, I've spent the better part of the last 20 years either as a subdeacon or a Master of Ceremonies in both forms of the Roman Rite. So, I would definitely say that I am a coach....don't believe me, friend me on facebook and look at my pictures...it's all there.

As an aside, in the Traditional Latin Mass as a subdeacon, I am not allowed to purify at all, because I am considered a "straw." In short, becuase I was never ordained to the subdeaconate, I don't have the proper character to approach the Sacred Species. As a subdeacon, I don't distribute Holy Communion, I hold the paten for the celebrant as he distributes Holy Communion....now, if the EF is to illumine the OF, don't you think that this would be an important distinction to start catechizing about? Proper reverence for the Sacred Species, even among her ministers?

[Cam42]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1308633266' post='2256697']
Okay. You're right. And there was a whole,big, long, complicated, off-point argument in there, too.

My point is - why don't we just let the experts do the expert-ing?

And you get points for trying to bring order out of chaos. I can do it if I have to, but I prefer to walk away from the chaos.
[/quote]


Because for the last 40 years the "experts" have made a mess of this and we have a right to a properly celebrated Mass. We also have a right to make it known to the pastor, the bishop and Rome. If the Church wants a more active role in this manner from the laity, then we have to learn and not just leave the experting to the experts, because, the experts are not really experts, but rather they are shills for the Consiliar (not Conciliar, PLEASE note the difference) establishment.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308633039' post='2256694']
I've [...] helped bring order to the chaos.
[/quote]
are you the Borg?

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306428034' post='2246234']
He doesn't need to talk to the priest about it. There simply is no need. He should not be doing it and what good would it do for him or the parents to have a confab about the issue?

Wrong is wrong. He should just say no. There is nothing wrong with that.
[/quote]


[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306431986' post='2246259']
The boy should not be put in that position to start with. The next time he is scheduled to serve, he should respectfully decline any action which is not proper to him. There is no need for a confab. [/quote]

I stopped reading this thread about at these posts... just not all that interested. So, if I miss something that's said later, forgive me. You certainly have a different way of dealing with children (and I'm assuming that the altar boy in question here is a boy, right?) than I do. I would not put my son in the awkward possition of having to say "no" when told to do something when it would be more proactive to nip the problem in the bud. Why *wouldn't* you want to save the boy from being embarrassed? Why would you *want* to put him in an awkward position? What good would a confab do? What harm would it do?

[dUSt]

Hmm... It seems like all the priests who were asked about this agree that drying is separate from purifying. I'm pretty sure everyone agreed from page 1 that purifying should only be done by the priest or acolyte. I think the only thing we disagree on is whether or not drying is the same as purifying. It seems this is a case of several priests disagreeing with some learned phatmassers, and I for one, am not convinced either way. The documents Cam and jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) cited do not really explain if drying is the same as purifying--in fact, I think they actually say the opposite--that drying is indeed a separate action from purifying. So, at this point, I'm still leaning toward drying is allowed by the altar servers...

[dUSt]

I changed my mind again, after reading this from a priest in Detroit, who outlines the process in great detail:

http://www.vpc.transfiguration-parish.org/VesselPurification.htm

[quote]At the outset, a distinction should be made. "Purification" refers to the act of removing any particles of the Host or Precious Blood. The paten or ciborium is purified by wiping it clean with a purificator. The chalice is purified by water (or water and wine), drinking the contents and wiping out he remaining droplets of water with a purificator. This is a priestly ritual. "Washing" the vessels refers to the preparation of the vessels for their next use. In this case, the vessels may be washed in hot water using a mild soap to remove any lipstick or germs that remain. This activity may be done by a non-ordained minister, very often the sacristan. After washing and drying, the vessels are either put away or prepared for use at the next Mass. This is a practical task.[/quote]

Again though, nothing cited from Rome that makes it a black and white issue, so now I'm just leaning the other way just as hesitantly as I was leaning the opposite way in my last post.