dUSt Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 This is interesting... If you go by what the GIRM says, the language is, "... purifies, wipes, and arranges ...". This would lead me to believe that the purification is separate from the wiping which is separate from the arrangement. The way the GIRM words it, it is three separate steps--the wiping is separate from the purification. So, if the only thing that is strictly reserved for the priest, deacon or acolyte is the [b]purification[/b], then maybe the alter server [b]is[/b] allowed to do the wiping and the arranging. In other words, talk to the priest. hahaha It all takes us back to Cam's original reply... [quote]Absolutely not!!!! The wiping of the vessels is part of the purifying process. [/quote] Maybe we should have asked Cam how he was so certain that this is true. We may have all jumped to conclusions based on an erroneous assumption.
stevil Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306461827' post='2246457'] Oh, I'm all for engaging a conversation, when a conversation is warranted. How is discussing a fact warranted.[/quote] Question for you Cam42, You seem to have a good grasp of what is right and what is wrong, so I'm looking to you as an authority on matters of right or wrong. [b]Is it wrong for the boy to ask the priest for clarification (in private) on Church etiquite if the boy doesn't understand why the priest is asking him to do something that the Church doesn't agree with? [/b]Is it a better approach to have the boy refuse the priest's request in front of the congregation during mass. Would this be a better approach for the boy, for the priest, for the congregation? It certainly would make mass interesting and would give people much to talk about. BTW is it important for the priest to be respected by his congregation? Would a boy pointing out his trangression in public impact the trust and respect necessary for the priest's role?
Cam42 Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1306534634' post='2246896'] Question for you Cam42, You seem to have a good grasp of what is right and what is wrong, so I'm looking to you as an authority on matters of right or wrong. [b]Is it wrong for the boy to ask the priest for clarification (in private) on Church etiquite if the boy doesn't understand why the priest is asking him to do something that the Church doesn't agree with? [/b]Is it a better approach to have the boy refuse the priest's request in front of the congregation during mass. Would this be a better approach for the boy, for the priest, for the congregation? It certainly would make mass interesting and would give people much to talk about. BTW is it important for the priest to be respected by his congregation? Would a boy pointing out his trangression in public impact the trust and respect necessary for the priest's role? [/quote] This is my last post at phatmass... It has been made perfectly clear to me that I am not welcome here by dUSt. I don't fall into his cult of personality...and since I don't agree with him 100%, 100% of the time, I am phishy....that is a word of warning for you...from someone who used to be very well respected around here...don't cross dUSt, he knows better than the Church, when it comes to correct judgment of one's heart. Sooo...if you would like an answer you can find me over at [mod]Edited. -dUSt[/mod] I will answer your question there. I am literally shaking the dUSt from my pheet.
Vincent Vega Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306536016' post='2246901'] This is my last post at phatmass... [/quote] This must be the trendy thing to do. I wanna try sometime!
Norseman82 Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 A video summary of this thread so far: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF0P5hS6DHo&feature=related[/media]
Lil Red Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 (edited) never mind, not gonna do it..... Edited May 27, 2011 by Lil Red
dUSt Posted May 28, 2011 Posted May 28, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306536016' post='2246901'] This is my last post at phatmass... It has been made perfectly clear to me that I am not welcome here by dUSt. I don't fall into his cult of personality...and since I don't agree with him 100%, 100% of the time, I am phishy....that is a word of warning for you...from someone who used to be very well respected around here...don't cross dUSt, he knows better than the Church, when it comes to correct judgment of one's heart. [/quote] Sorry to see you go man. All I asked was that you follow the guidelines: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?app=forums&module=extras§ion=boardrules The same rules apply to every single phatmasser, not just you. Actually, I think if you'd be willing to simply abide by the phorum guidelines you'd be the most amesome phatmasser ever. So, put it on me, sure. I don't mind at all. But the choice is actually yours. Either way, I wish you well in your quest.
AudreyGrace Posted May 28, 2011 Posted May 28, 2011 Soooo.... how 'bout them vessels getting purified at Mass, eh?
dominicansoul Posted May 28, 2011 Posted May 28, 2011 (edited) [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306568196' post='2247011'] Sorry to see you go man. All I asked was that you follow the guidelines: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?app=forums&module=extras§ion=boardrules The same rules apply to every single phatmasser, not just you. Actually, I think if you'd be willing to simply abide by the phorum guidelines you'd be the most amesome phatmasser ever. So, put it on me, sure. I don't mind at all. But the choice is actually yours. Either way, I wish you well in your quest. [/quote] dUSt, you always respond with kindness...its sad that you are so villified. I [i]always[/i] keep you and phatmass in my prayers... Edited May 28, 2011 by dominicansoul
dUSt Posted May 28, 2011 Posted May 28, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1306569577' post='2247018'] dUSt, you always respond in kind...its sad that you are so villified. I [i]always[/i] keep you and phatmass in my prayers... [/quote]
Archaeology cat Posted May 28, 2011 Posted May 28, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1306569577' post='2247018'] dUSt, you always respond with kindness...its sad that you are so villified. I [i]always[/i] keep you and phatmass in my prayers... [/quote]
Luigi Posted May 28, 2011 Posted May 28, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306536016' post='2246901'] This is my last post at phatmass... It has been made perfectly clear to me that I am not welcome here by dUSt. I don't fall into his cult of personality...and since I don't agree with him 100%, 100% of the time, I am phishy....that is a word of warning for you...from someone who used to be very well respected around here...don't cross dUSt, he knows better than the Church, when it comes to correct judgment of one's heart. Sooo...if you would like an answer you can find me over at [mod]Edited. -dUSt[/mod] I will answer your question there. I am literally shaking the dUSt from my pheet. [/quote] Ciao.
AudreyGrace Posted May 28, 2011 Posted May 28, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306536016' post='2246901'] find me over at [mod]Edited. -dUSt[/mod] I will answer your question there. [/quote]
Gal. 5:22,23 Posted June 1, 2011 Author Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1306531542' post='2246872'] This is the closest thing I have found so far, but the interpretation still has some greyspace I think. Unfortunately my pastor is out sick right now so I have to wait to ask. [/quote] Have you had the chance to ask him yet? I'm still getting conflicting information.
Groo the Wanderer Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='Gal. 5:22,23' timestamp='1306888017' post='2248431'] Have you had the chance to ask him yet? I'm still getting conflicting information. [/quote] not yet :-(
Groo the Wanderer Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 OK phatpeeps. I got the answer from my pastor on this whole bruhaha *horse whinny* I LOVE my pastor! He gets right to the crux of everything when someone bothers to ask. His quote:" Rome likes vagueness. Americans do not." It is fine for the the EMHCs to wipe/dry the Sacred Vessels after the Acolyte has purified them. Until the Magisterium rules otherwise or hands down a clarification, wiping is a separate action from purifying. I for one am happy for this, so I don't have lil old ladies making angry faces at me again...for now.
Cam42 Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1308623332' post='2256634'] OK phatpeeps. I got the answer from my pastor on this whole bruhaha *horse whinny* I LOVE my pastor! He gets right to the crux of everything when someone bothers to ask. His quote:" Rome likes vagueness. Americans do not." It is fine for the the EMHCs to wipe/dry the Sacred Vessels after the Acolyte has purified them. Until the Magisterium rules otherwise or hands down a clarification, wiping is a separate action from purifying. I for one am happy for this, so I don't have lil old ladies making angry faces at me again...for now. [/quote] And I disagree with your pastor. He's just wrong in this instance. I've given a clear explanation which was promptly ignored. My explanation is at odds with your pastor's. My explanation uses the documentation of the Church. Show that to him and see what he says....btw, I'm an installed acolyte too, so you and I, we're on even footing, canonically. Wiping of the chalice is part of the purification process and therefore it is not allowed for anyone who is not at the very least an installed acolyte. The citations for my posts are listed above and my reasoning is sound. Edited June 21, 2011 by Cam42
Jaime Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1308623332' post='2256634'] OK phatpeeps. I got the answer from my pastor on this whole bruhaha *horse whinny* I LOVE my pastor! He gets right to the crux of everything when someone bothers to ask. His quote:" Rome likes vagueness. Americans do not." It is fine for the the EMHCs to wipe/dry the Sacred Vessels after the Acolyte has purified them. Until the Magisterium rules otherwise or hands down a clarification, wiping is a separate action from purifying. I for one am happy for this, so I don't have lil old ladies making angry faces at me again...for now. [/quote] I'm gonna agree with Camster on this. The wiping of the Sacred Vessels should only be done with a purificator. That being the case, it doesn't matter if wiping and purifying are a part of the same process or two different ones. Its the proper cloth to use. And only the priest, deacon or Groo (acolyte) should be using the purificator. This reminds me of a time when i had no choice but to break this rule. I was playing for mass at a hospital and I found the priest pouring out the Sacred Blood down the sink in the back (not a Sacrarium) so I offered to take over for him since he was always in a hurry. I knew I wasn't supposed to do it but I thought it was better than Christ being dumped in a sewer edit to add: I also think its respectful and appropriate for a boy to talk to the priest on a day other than he is assisting as an altar server about this very topic.
Groo the Wanderer Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306426290' post='2246226'] Ummm...[b]dUSt you're wrong[/b]...he is not entitled to that function. The purifying of vessels is [u]not allowed[/u] for laymen. They [b]cannot[/b] purify. The most an altar server can do is transport the ALREADY purified vessel to the credence, if so determined. The article I cite is clear. The letter from Bishop Skylstad is clear. The GIRM #163 is even clearer. Redemptoris Sacramentum is clear. The Church is clear. Laymen [b]cannot[/b] purify. [url="http://www.nccbuscc.org/liturgy/cleansingofvessels.pdf"]source[/url] (cf. #4) [url="http://www.adoremus.org/RedemptionisSacramentum.html"]source[/url] (cf. #119) [/quote] Actually Cam, what you quoted supports my point and that of my Pastor. Both documents state that an EMHC cannot assist in the purification of the vessels. This we ALL agree on. The point of confoosion was whether wiping is part of purifying. As stated in the GIRM sections I quoted earlier, it is not. Hence there is no issue with an EMHC or altar server wiping the vessels AFTER they have been purified. Also you boo-booed above when you said "The purifying of vessels is not allowed for laymen." Acolytes are laymen. Acolytes may purify. Hence some laymen can purify the vessels.
Groo the Wanderer Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308627113' post='2256656'] And only the priest, deacon or Groo (acolyte) should be using the purificator. [/quote] Got any references to back this up? Honestly curious. Would search myself, but am multitasking on getting 10 computers refurbed for computer camp and writing 25 mini-lessons on Catholic Basics for Confirmation this year.
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