Purifying Vessels At Mass

[Lil Red]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1306438311' post='2246293']
This is why, when I attend mass, I go as a sinner, a lay person, a member of the body of Christ. If I go as a theologian, I might be inclined to intellectually pick apart the mass rather than just experience the mystery and grandeur.
[/quote]
that's what's been nice about going to Mass and just being able to participate, instead of feeling like i was 'on the job.'

[Cam42]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1306438311' post='2246293']
This is why, when I attend mass, I go as a sinner, a lay person, a member of the body of Christ. If I go as a theologian, I might be inclined to intellectually pick apart the mass rather than just experience the mystery and grandeur.
[/quote]

And that is a sad statement concerning the Mass that you assist at. You should NOT have to take off your theologian's hat to assist at Mass. It shows the hermeneutic of discontinuity to a T; that a Catholic theologian has to set aside his education to assist at Mass.

As you well know, I also have degrees in Sacred Theology and I refuse to separate my education from my Faith. My intellect is and should be illuminated by the Sacred Mysteries, not snuffed out under a bushel basket of abuse and intellectualism.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1306438490' post='2246295']
that's what's been nice about going to Mass and just being able to participate, instead of feeling like i was 'on the job.'
[/quote]

A theologian is always "on the job" when it comes to Holy Mother Church. Sadz...that you have to think that way.

[AudreyGrace]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306437499' post='2246286']
Whatever...you're trolling...

[/quote]
[img]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2786/5762824164_c2b01f6984_s.jpg[/img]


[quote] I am an MC in my parish.
[/quote]


[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/clap2.gif[/img] [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/dance.gif[/img]

[dUSt]

Cam, you seem to be very stubborn. You said I was wrong for suggesting that the boy talk to the priest [b]before[/b] mass. Your plan of action was to spring it on the priest [b]during[/b] mass.

Why is it more tactful to bring this issue to light [b]during[/b] the liturgy as opposed to [b]before[/b] the liturgy? Very simple question. It seems to me, with the love you seem to have for a proper liturgy, interrupting the liturgy with a moment of surprise would violate everything you stand for.

Maybe it's perfectly clear in your own mind, but I am honestly very confused over the point/argument you are trying to win here.

And please, these are real questions. Please don't dismiss it as me "trolling" again.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306438749' post='2246298']
A theologian is always "on the job" when it comes to Holy Mother Church. Sadz...that you have to think that way.
[/quote]
sadz that i was made to feel that way from my bosses at the parish. at the parish i now attend, i don't shut off my brain, but i don't feel looked down upon for genuflecting before receiving the Eucharist, or kneeling after receiving the Eucharist in thanksgiving, or praying after Mass, or any number of things I used to do that I would get treated harshly for by my bosses. thanks for thinking the worst of me though.

and technically, i have no college degree, so i'm not a theologian in the strictest sense.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306438639' post='2246296']
And that is a sad statement concerning the Mass that you assist at. You should NOT have to take off your theologian's hat to assist at Mass. It shows the hermeneutic of discontinuity to a T; that a Catholic theologian has to set aside [s]his[/s] her education to assist at Mass.[/quote] fixed.

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306438639' post='2246296']As you well know, I also have degrees in Sacred Theology and I refuse to separate my education from my Faith. My intellect is and should be illuminated by the Sacred Mysteries, not snuffed out under a bushel basket of abuse and intellectualism.
[/quote]
and i'll bet you make sure everyone knows it too.

[organwerke]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306438403' post='2246294']
I have also said all along that he should simply inform the pastor that he has no right to do this and that he should not be expected to do so in the future, as it is not his right to do so. There is no conversation to be had.
[/quote]

In my opinion, informing the pastor that the boy has not the right to dry the vessel is a conversation, and a conversation, even if very short, is an exchange of words, unless a person does not want to communicate only by gestures.
I really don't see the sense of this discussion... all have clearly said that the boy has not the right to dry the vessel, and this was the question asked in the thread.
Why are we now going on discussing about telling "no" before, during or after, about talking with the priest or not talking, telling him the boy has not the right to dry the vessel but not having a conversation etc...?

[Cam42]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306439105' post='2246303']
Cam, you seem to be very stubborn. You said I was wrong for suggesting that the boy talk to the priest [b]before[/b] mass. Your plan of action was to spring it on the priest [b]during[/b] mass.

Why is it more tactful to bring this issue to light [b]during[/b] the liturgy as opposed to [b]before[/b] the liturgy? Very simple question. It seems to me, with the love you seem to have for a proper liturgy, interrupting the liturgy with a moment of surprise would violate everything you stand for.

Maybe it's perfectly clear in your own mind, but I am honestly very confused over the point/argument you are trying to win here.

And please, these are real questions. Please don't dismiss it as me "trolling" again.
[/quote]


Where did I say that he should do anything [b]DURING[/b] Mass? I said that the next time he is asked, he should respectfully decline. I then went on to say that there is no need for a drawn out confab/counseling session with the celebrant/pastor about it. The teaching of the Church is clear.

[b]YOU[/b] are implying and reading into the statement [b]WAY[/b] more than what was there. So, I clarified when Catherine asked. I said this:

[quote]I never advocated visible disobedience. I simply said that he should respectfully decline the invitation to purify. If the celebrant hands him the partially purified chalice, then he should simply cover it with the purificator and place it on the credence, without any attempt to purify. After Mass, he should inform the celebrant that he needs to finish purifying the vessel and and respectfully decline to do that in the future. There needs to be no drama, there needs to be no dissention, because there is none. The boy is being clear about his role and dutifully fulfilling it.[/quote]

That is not "springing" anything on anybody.

Again, I never advocated the boy throwing his hands up at Mass and walking away shaking his head, which is what you're implying. The implications are not on my part, bud....they are on yours. If you can't keep up with the conversation and are confused by it, then maybe you should retire....it seems like others are getting it just fine.

As for the trolling bit...I've been back on the site for about 3 hours and you've engaged me on both threads...how is that not trolling me...? You only have 12,000 posts over 8 years...and now you've got 20 today in two threads that I've posted on? What are you worried about? Are you looking for a reason to ban me again? (I'd bring this up in PM, but I can't do that....so thanks for making me do this in public...I hope you're sufficiently embarrassed, I know that I am, but I'm not hiding from anything anymore.....transparency is the key to orthodoxy. Everyone will know that I hold Catholic positions from now on, since I have to justify them because of the tag you gave me.)

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1306439739' post='2246306']
sadz that i was made to feel that way from my bosses at the parish. at the parish i now attend, i don't shut off my brain, but i don't feel looked down upon for genuflecting before receiving the Eucharist, or kneeling after receiving the Eucharist in thanksgiving, or praying after Mass, or any number of things I used to do that I would get treated harshly for by my bosses. thanks for thinking the worst of me though.

and technically, i have no college degree, so i'm not a theologian in the strictest sense.
[/quote]

I wasn't thinking the worst of you, I was thinking the worst of the situation.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1306439818' post='2246307']
fixed.


and i'll bet you make sure everyone knows it too.
[/quote]

Ummm....wow!!!!

No, and how is applying proper grammar something that needs fixing. If I am speaking in generalities, it is absolutely correct to refer to a noun in the masculine, even when speaking about a female. I will not apologize for being grammatically correct and politically incorrect.

As for my degrees, I now have to justify them because of the tags that have been unjustly applied over a month ago.

[dUSt]

Cam, you are such a silly guy. Where else would the boy be invited to purify the vessels except [b]during[/b] mass? You make funny debates.

[Cam42]

I'm not silly...and the celebrant could inform him prior to Mass that is what he wants...why do you keep on with this dUSt? Let it go...you were wrong...it's ok to admit it.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Cam42

[dUSt]

Can you remind me again, what I am wrong about? It would be helpful if you could just quote my wrong statement. I will review it, and if it is indeed wrong, I will admit it gracefully.

[organwerke]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306440073' post='2246309']

As for the trolling bit...I've been back on the site for about 3 hours and you've engaged me on both threads...how is that not trolling me...? You only have 12,000 posts over 8 years...and now you've got 20 today in two threads that I've posted on? What are you worried about? Are you looking for a reason to ban me again? (I'd bring this up in PM, but I can't do that....so thanks for making me do this in public...I hope you're sufficiently embarrassed, I know that I am, but I'm not hiding from anything anymore.....transparency is the key to orthodoxy. Everyone will know that I hold Catholic positions from now on, since I have to justify them because of the tag you gave me.)
[/quote]

Sorry Cam.
I really hope that you believe that, even if I have often engaged "battles" with you I highly appreciate your participation in forums and I do not agree with your Phishy tag.
But let me say I find you a person with whom sometimes it is very difficult to talk.
If you re read the first page of this thread you'll see you are the person who has firstly quoted dust saying that he was wrong.
I quote your words:
[quote]Ummm...[b]dUSt you're wrong[/b]...he is not entitled to that function. [/quote]
when dust hadn't absolutely said the boy was entitled to do that action.
so then you said: [quote]You're wrong. I read what you said, carefully. There is no need for the child or parents to have to have a confab with the pastor.[/quote] when dust in his first post said that in his opinion the boy should explain before mass that there is a document that says the boy cannot purify the vessel.
This is how I see the subject...anyway I understand your sensitiveness because, after all, I see there is no great acceptance of you in this forum (especially seeing the other thread) and I am sincerely sorry for this.
I know you are a very cultured and good man, only I'd like you were a little "less squared" (I don't know if this has a sense in English...!)

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306438639' post='2246296']
And that is a sad statement concerning the Mass that you assist at. You should NOT have to take off your theologian's hat to assist at Mass. It shows the hermeneutic of discontinuity to a T; that a Catholic theologian has to set aside his education to assist at Mass.

As you well know, I also have degrees in Sacred Theology and I refuse to separate my education from my Faith. My intellect is and should be illuminated by the Sacred Mysteries, not snuffed out under a bushel basket of abuse and intellectualism.
[/quote]
I do not assist at mass. I will occasionally sing, but that is usually at a funeral or wedding. Our parish is run by the Basilian Fathers, and it is as orthodox as I have ever seen. When they took over, they had a bunch of problems to correct, and they did it quickly, relatively quietly, and with tact. they got rid of 95% of the EMHCs, made everyone go back to kneeling at the consecration, and cleaned up the RCIA. I suspect our next liturgical dance at Easter will be when hell freezes over. They started using the new translation of the Eucharistic prayers as soon as they were approved. My education is not so that I can become a priest. I will leave that to my male classmates. I guess growing up in a military family made me appreciate the value of things like obedience and chain of command.

The only intellectualism I am seeing is in your posts. If you want to control everything in the Church, become a bishop and get elected Pope.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1306439818' post='2246307']

and i'll bet you make sure everyone knows it too.
[/quote]
This is, if I recall correctly, only the second time I've heard Cam talk about his education experience, and the first time was when I specifically asked him about his background.

[Winchester]

[img]http://www.mccullagh.org/db9/1ds-10/death-guild-thunderdome.jpg[/img]

[Cam42]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1306441339' post='2246323']
I do not assist at mass. I will occasionally sing, but that is usually at a funeral or wedding. Our parish is run by the Basilian Fathers, and it is as orthodox as I have ever seen. When they took over, they had a bunch of problems to correct, and they did it quickly, relatively quietly, and with tact. they got rid of 95% of the EMHCs, made everyone go back to kneeling at the consecration, and cleaned up the RCIA. I suspect our next liturgical dance at Easter will be when hell freezes over. They started using the new translation of the Eucharistic prayers as soon as they were approved. My education is not so that I can become a priest. I will leave that to my male classmates. I guess growing up in a military family made me appreciate the value of things like obedience and chain of command.

The only intellectualism I am seeing is in your posts. If you want to control everything in the Church, become a bishop and get elected Pope.
[/quote]

All people assist at Mass, from a theological point of view. If we are worshiping properly, then we are unitng our souls to the unbloody sacrifice as well as offering our petitions that we spiritually laid on the altar as we prepared for Mass, along with the celebrant.

You're darn tootin' we assist at Mass. It is the traditional way of talking about going to Holy Mass.

I'm glad that you have an orthodox Mass to assist at. That warms my heart. I love to hear that the Mass another assists at is orthodox and good. It doesn't make sense then that you would want to not think theologically then, whilst assisting at Holy Mass.

As far as intellectualism HERE goes...that is what HERE is for. This is a place to come and talk through the faith, so I'm glad that you think me an intellectual. I don't want to control everything in the Church, I just want the Church to control what it needs in the way that it should, through 2000 years of tradition and Tradition. I have an opinion about that and this is the forum on which to speak about it. I won't apologize for doing that.

[Cam42]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306440810' post='2246317']
Can you remind me again, what I am wrong about? It would be helpful if you could just quote my wrong statement. I will review it, and if it is indeed wrong, I will admit it gracefully.
[/quote]


I think that you're wrong about this:

[quote]It's probably a good idea to talk to the priest about it before your son just starts refusing to do it.[/quote]

There is no need for it. What can he do to change the precept? Nothing. He simply needs to state that he won't be doing that going forward and that he should not be expected to do so, based upon the regulations the Church has had in place since 2006. Again, for the umpteenth time...there is no need to confab with the priest about it, he just needs to make it clear that he won't be doing that.

If his services are not required beyond that time, it is better for the boy, because then he won't be complicit in an abuse of the Mass. If his services are required after that, then the celebrant knows that he won't be purifying any vessels going forward.

Why do I have to keep repeating myself?

[dUSt]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306442743' post='2246334']
I think that you're wrong about this:

There is no need for it. What can he do to change the precept? Nothing. He simply needs to state that he won't be doing that going forward and that he should not be expected to do so, based upon the regulations the Church has had in place since 2006. Again, for the umpteenth time...there is no need to confab with the priest about it, he just needs to make it clear that he won't be doing that.
[/quote]
So, you think it is wrong for them to talk to the priest about it.

Thank you! This lends a lot of insight to your methodology when it comes to dealing with issues at the local parish level.

I must say, I disagree with your "tactful" way of dealing with things though. Life is a series of relationships. We must deal with actual people all the time. People learn. People change minds. People grow. Yes, even priests. So, I think it is a flawed mentality to go through life and situations with the pre-assumed position that talking to people will never do any good. To each his own though. I can say this... I would be genuinely surprised if your methods for affecting change ever actually affect any change.