Purifying Vessels At Mass

[AudreyGrace]

Talk to the priest...don't talk to the priest...[i]when[/i] should he talk to the priest? [i]where [/i]should he talk to the priest? Such a fierce confusion.

[Cam42]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306443868' post='2246338']
So, you think it is wrong for them to talk to the priest about it.

Thank you! This lends a lot of insight to your methodology when it comes to dealing with issues at the local parish level.

I must say, I disagree with your "tactful" way of dealing with things though. Life is a series of relationships. We must deal with actual people all the time. People learn. People change minds. People grow. Yes, even priests. So, I think it is a flawed mentality to go through life and situations with the pre-assumed position that talking to people will never do any good. To each his own though. I can say this... I would be genuinely surprised if your methods for affecting change ever actually affect any change.


[/quote]

Oh, I'm all for engaging a conversation, when a conversation is warranted. How is discussing a fact warranted. The boy should simply say that I'm not able to do that. AND THAT SHOULD BE ENOUGH.

But oh, no....in this age of emotionalism we have to "work through" everything. That is such BS. We should be able to speak to the truth and that should be the end of it. Redemptoris Sacramentum gives us that RIGHT! That's correct...a RIGHT!

You do disagree with me, that's fine...but that doesn't mean that I'm wrong. While life may be a series of "relationships" (to use your language), that doesn't mean that everything has to be a dialogue. There are times when a clear statement is enough. Such as, "I don't have the right to purify, please don't ask me to do that. Here's why...(sources)..."

The situation we're talking about isn't pre-assumed. It is crystal clear. I've shown how. I've shown why. [b]YOU[/b] refuse to accept it, because we should all "dialogue" and "commune." That is a mistake. Relationships have never worked that way....and they have only been defined that way since the mid 1960s (psychological, not ecclesiastical).

You might be more surprised than you think....my view is more accepted every day....as is traditionalism....All the psycho-babble is going the way of the do-do....

[Gal. 5:22,23]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1306448254' post='2246369']
Talk to the priest...don't talk to the priest...[i]when[/i] should he talk to the priest? [i]where [/i]should he talk to the priest? Such a fierce confusion.
[/quote]

[i]He's[/i] not going to talk to the priest because he is ten. He has no idea that what he did today was wrong. This is up to me to deal with, and it's super tricky because the priest (pastor) is also my boss. Also, my son absolutely loves serving. He's the only one in our parish of 3,500 families who wants to serve Daily Mass. My saying something to the pastor about this will not go over well, this I know.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Gal. 5:22,23' timestamp='1306462197' post='2246461']
[i]He's[/i] not going to talk to the priest because he is ten. He has no idea that what he did today was wrong. This is up to me to deal with, and it's super tricky because the priest (pastor) is also my boss. Also, my son absolutely loves serving. He's the only one in our parish of 3,500 families who wants to serve Daily Mass. My saying something to the pastor about this will not go over well, this I know.
[/quote]
And this is why you should simply talk to the priest about it before-hand, and not put it on your son to make an act of defiance. First of all, it's just good manners. Secondly, you will show the priest that you have enough respect for him and his position to discuss it with him before taking action.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Gal. 5:22,23' timestamp='1306462197' post='2246461']
[i]He's[/i] not going to talk to the priest because he is ten. He has no idea that what he did today was wrong. This is up to me to deal with, and it's super tricky because the priest (pastor) is also my boss. Also, my son absolutely loves serving. He's the only one in our parish of 3,500 families who wants to serve Daily Mass. My saying something to the pastor about this will not go over well, this I know.
[/quote]

In making my statements, I fully and completely realize that it isn't up to a boy to make the correction, but we must speak to the truth of the statement. If the issue is directed at the boy, then to speak of it from his point of view is best. I hope you realize that, in my statements. If you didn't, I hope you now do.

In your questions, I would not engage in any undue conversation. The Church is clear, so we should assent our wills to that, not what the whims of a priest might be.

Above there were rumblings about changing hearts. Perhaps the SACRIFICE you and your son may need to make, in order NOT to be complicit in abuse can change hearts, especially the priest. If not, then I have said my peace.

As I said before, the boy should NEVER have been put in that situation. The fact that he was obliges him not to engage in it again, because that person who is responsible for his Catholicity now knows better. The will of the Church is first with regard to her faithful. We assent our wills to that of the Church. NOT vice versa.

Not serving, even though he loves it, is better than serving knowing that he is complicit in abuse. I will not waiver on that advice. I have not as a master of ceremonies, and I will not on this site or any other. If he really wants to continue serving, make it clear that the boy will only serve if the Mass is faithful, 100%. That is the only way he can bolster and grow in his faith.

I am looking out for the interest of the boy...he should serve if able. It is a great way to promote a possible vocation. I will not support or condone any action which is inconsistent with the will of the Church. Clearly, an extraordinary minister, no matter the stripe or vintage, who purifies is not in line with the will of the Church.

I support your son and you, as you approach the celebrant/pastor to make a very difficult statement which exemplifies the will of Holy Mother Church. My prayer is that his liberalism will abate enough for your son to be able to continue to do what he loves. If the pastor/celebrant does not relent, then I pray you will find a place where you can assist at Holy Mass where orthodoxy rules the day.

God Bless you and your 10 year old.

[Cam42]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306463208' post='2246469']
And this is why you should simply talk to the priest about it before-hand, and not put it on your son to make an act of defiance. First of all, it's just good manners. Secondly, you will show the priest that you have enough respect for him and his position to discuss it with him before taking action.
[/quote]

And the priest should have enough respect for the faithful NOT to put them in that situation to begin with.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306463399' post='2246470']
Not serving, even though he loves it, is better than serving knowing that he is complicit in abuse. I will not waiver on that advice. I have not as a master of ceremonies, and I will not on this site or any other. If he really wants to continue serving, make it clear that the boy will only serve if the Mass is faithful, 100%. That is the only way he can bolster and grow in his faith.

I am looking out for the interest of the boy...he should serve if able. It is a great way to promote a possible vocation. I will not support or condone any action which is inconsistent with the will of the Church. Clearly, an extraordinary minister, no matter the stripe or vintage, who purifies is not in line with the will of the Church.

I support your son and you, as you approach the celebrant/pastor to make a very difficult statement which exemplifies the will of Holy Mother Church. My prayer is that his liberalism will abate enough for your son to be able to continue to do what he loves. If the pastor/celebrant does not relent, then I pray you will find a place where you can assist at Holy Mass where orthodoxy rules the day.

God Bless you and your 10 year old.
[/quote]
And by all means, Gal 5:22, be sure to take the advice of a stranger on an internet website more seriously than [i]anything[/i] that stupid liberal (albeit canon lawyer and priest of the Holy Catholic Church) says. Obviously if the internets says it it's true. Be not overcome by the emotionalism that runs the world.
By the way, get the boy to confession as soon as you can. By having complied, nay, by even having been so close to such [i]grave[/i] abuse, he is presently damned to hell (actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Satan would reach up from the bowels of the earth and drag him to the pits of hell by his ankle at any moment. Such grave, grave sin).

[Cam42]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1306465305' post='2246490']
And by all means, Gal 5:22, be sure to take the advice of a stranger on an internet website more seriously than [i]anything[/i] that stupid liberal (albeit canon lawyer and priest of the Holy Catholic Church) says. Obviously if the internets says it it's true. Be not overcome by the emotionalism that runs the world.
By the way, get the boy to confession as soon as you can. By having complied, nay, by even having been so close to such [i]grave[/i] abuse, he is presently damned to hell (actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Satan would reach up from the bowels of the earth and drag him to the pits of hell by his ankle at any moment. Such grave, grave sin).
[/quote]

She posed the question here, I didn't just pull it out of thin air...OMDG!!!!


I was taking the question seriously...sheesh...whatev's man, whatev's...

Edited May 27, 2011 by Cam42

[CatherineM]

This discussion has reminded me of something that happened when I was a 14 year old sacristan. I knew my job, and that was about it. I was used to purificators and chalices to be in a certain state when I was to clean them in the sacrarium. One week, they hadn't been properly purified. When I asked the nun who supervised the sacristans about it, she laughed and said that our pastor had burned his right fingers, and wasn't as good doing stuff left handed. I didn't think him burning himself was very funny until she said he did it trying to show the boy scouts how to start a fire without a match.

[Cam42]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1306467044' post='2246500']
This discussion has reminded me of something that happened when I was a 14 year old sacristan. I knew my job, and that was about it. I was used to purificators and chalices to be in a certain state when I was to clean them in the sacrarium. One week, they hadn't been properly purified. When I asked the nun who supervised the sacristans about it, she laughed and said that our pastor had burned his right fingers, and wasn't as good doing stuff left handed. I didn't think him burning himself was very funny until she said he did it trying to show the boy scouts how to start a fire without a match.
[/quote]

Why would you be cleaning them in the sacrarium? Were they not purified, when you were cleaning them? If you were using a mild detergent and warm water to clean them, a regular sink would most certainly suffice. There was nothing that required the contents to go directly to the ground. That is odd that Sister would make you use the sacrarium for mere cleaning of the vessels...odd indeed.

Prolly not the point of the story, but that is what I got from it.... :shrugs:

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306465893' post='2246493']
She posed the question here, I didn't just pull it out of thin air...OMDG!!!!


I was taking the question seriously...sheesh...whatev's man, whatev's...
[/quote]
Listen, I don't want you to think I'm taking liturgical abuses lightly. The question should be taken seriously. If it's something the boy should not do, then it should be stopped. However, I think you are out of line to call a priest that you know virtually nothing about "liberal". He is a minister of the Holy Church and deserves respect for that. Further, it was said that he is a canon lawyer, so it's safe to assume that he has probably at least considered the matter before, if not spent more time studying this subject than, I'd hazard, even you.

[Cam42]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1306467664' post='2246509']
Listen, I don't want you to think I'm taking liturgical abuses lightly. The question should be taken seriously. If it's something the boy should not do, then it should be stopped. However, I think you are out of line to call a priest that you know virtually nothing about "liberal". He is a minister of the Holy Church and deserves respect for that. Further, it was said that he is a canon lawyer, so it's safe to assume that he has probably at least considered the matter before, if not spent more time studying this subject than, I'd hazard, even you.
[/quote]

That might all be true...but wrong is wrong...and the Church is clear on what is right and what is wrong in this matter...even if the Pope were to say differently, that doesn't make him above reproach on the matter. This is a matter of discipline, not dogma, not doctrine.

This also is not a matter of Canon Law, so that really has no bearing on anything. This has to do with Liturgical Law...totally different specialty...

[dUSt]

This thread is funny because everyone is agreeing that it is an abuse, and something needs to be done about it. We are arguing about proper etiquette and manners. We are arguing about proper etiquette and manners with Cam. I just think this thread is funny because of that.

[Cam42]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306470944' post='2246563']
This thread is funny because everyone is agreeing that it is an abuse, and something needs to be done about it. We are arguing about proper etiquette and manners. We are arguing about proper etiquette and manners with Cam. I just think this thread is funny because of that.
[/quote]

Actually, I'm not arguing at all...you all are arguing around me...I've been incredibly consistent and level headed about all of this...

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306467565' post='2246507']
Why would you be cleaning them in the sacrarium? Were they not purified, when you were cleaning them? If you were using a mild detergent and warm water to clean them, a regular sink would most certainly suffice. There was nothing that required the contents to go directly to the ground. That is odd that Sister would make you use the sacrarium for mere cleaning of the vessels...odd indeed.

Prolly not the point of the story, but that is what I got from it.... :shrugs:
[/quote]
The purificators needed to be soaked, and we always did a final rinse of the vessels. I suspect just to be on the safe side, and it was the only sink we had unless you wanted us to wash them out in the bathroom in the school cafeteria.

[Groo the Wanderer]

The purificators are SUPPOSED to be rinsed in the sacrarium before washing. Nothing wrong here.


The question seems to be (at least for me) what actions are defined as purification of the sacred vessels. Certainly washing them out with plain water and then consuming the Precious Blood and Sacred Particles so captured. But what about wiping them after that? Is that just wiping or also part of the purification?

I ask because I AM an Instituted Acolyte and purify the sacred vessels after every Mass I attend. Unless another acolyte is there as well, one of the EHMCs usually hangs around to wipe as I purify each of them. I need to find out for sure if this is ok or not, per the GIRM so I can ask Father about it.

Our training was not quite comprehensive and didn't cover what to do about the corporal either. I had to ask after seeing one of the EMHCs shake it out into the sacrarium. EGAD! Father said the particles in the corporal should be placed into the final chalice and consumed with the rest. HOW to do that is still hazy though....

[Groo the Wanderer]

Also....NOBODY has the right to interrupt the Mass. Not the priest and certainly not a lay minister like a 10 yr old altar server. To expect the kiddo to question the celebrant during the Mass is insane. By definition, his ability to serve in the parish is derived from the authority of the pastor and as a condition of said service, he is to submit his will to the pastor while performing such service.

If there is a question or concern, the time to bring it up is before or after, but most certainly NOT during the Mass!!!!



sheeze!

[Gal. 5:22,23]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1306499558' post='2246708']

The question seems to be (at least for me) what actions are defined as purification of the sacred vessels. Certainly washing them out with plain water and then consuming the Precious Blood and Sacred Particles so captured. But what about wiping them after that? Is that just wiping or also part of the purification?
[/quote]

This is what I'm trying to determine as well but can't find explicit mention of it in any of the documents. So far, two priests tell me that it is not.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Gal. 5:22,23

[dUSt]

[quote name='Gal. 5:22,23' timestamp='1306504659' post='2246729']
This is what I'm trying to determine as well but can't find explicit mention of it in any of the documents. So far, two priests tell me that it is not.
[/quote]
Another reason why talking to the priest before-hand is a wise thing to do. He may actually know the answer.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Gal. 5:22,23' timestamp='1306504659' post='2246729']
This is what I'm trying to determine as well but can't find explicit mention of it in any of the documents. So far, two priests tell me that it is not.
[/quote]


This is the closest thing I have found so far, but the interpretation still has some greyspace I think. Unfortunately my pastor is out sick right now so I have to wait to ask. Boy are some old ladies gonna be upset if it turns out they can't help with wiping either....


"192. Likewise, when the distribution of Communion is completed, a duly instituted acolyte helps the priest or deacon to purify and arrange the sacred vessels. When no deacon is present, a duly instituted acolyte carries the sacred vessels to the credence table and there purifies, wipes, and arranges them in the usual way." This second sentence suggests that it is preferable that the instituted acolyte do the purifications, rather than the priest.

"247. The deacon reverently drinks at the altar all of the Blood of Christ that remains, assisted, if necessary, by some of the concelebrants. He then carries the chalice over to the credence table and there he or a duly instituted acolyte purifies, wipes, and arranges it in the usual way (cf. above, no. 183)."

"249. ... The deacon, however, consumes at the altar all that remains of the Precious Blood, assisted, if necessary, by some of the concelebrants. He carries the chalice to the credence table and there he or a duly instituted acolyte purifies, wipes and arranges it in the usual way."

"279. The sacred vessels are purified by the priest, the deacon, or an instituted acolyte after Communion or after Mass, insofar as possible at the credence table."

"284. ... b. Whatever may remain of the Blood of Christ is consumed at the altar by the priest or the deacon or the duly instituted acolyte who ministered the chalice. The same then purifies, wipes, and arranges the sacred vessels in the usual way."

A description of the process of purification is in 2002 GIRM 163: "Then, standing at the altar or at the credence table, he purifies the paten or ciborium over the chalice then purifies the chalice, saying quietly, Quod ore sumpsimus (Lord, may I receive), and dries the chalice with a purificator." The full prayer, to be said inaudibly is "Lord, may I receive these gifts in purity of heart. May they bring me healing and strength, now and for ever."