Adrestia Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1310368405' post='2265675'] Yeah, I'm not really sure what they are actually, I thought they are rituals representing some sort of spiritual life cycle. I just looked it up and have interpreted t a bit, hopefully not in an offensive manner. Funeral service isn't one of them. Baptism is a birth of sorts, Eucharist could be likened to a journey of life Reconciliation is the ability to get back onto life's path when one invariably strays and gets lost. Confirmation is like hitting puberty representing spiritual growth into an adult? Marriage, is a union with a mortal partner Holy orders is to become a spiritual leader and servant of god Anointing of the sick is spiritual healing and final acceptance of death. I had a discussion with an Orthodox person a few months ago and he was telling me that a woman who had to terminate her unborn because it was life threatening and her life needed to persist because she had other children, well this woman was allowed to terminate the pregnancy but was not allowed to partake of eucharist until she had performed penance for her sin of terminating the baby. I guess this gave me the view that witholding a sacrament can be seen as a punishment, making the person feel as an outcast within their community as others can participate but they cannot until they have redeemed themselves as worthy. [/quote] According NewAdvent.com, an on-line Catholic encyclopedia, the sacraments are an outward sign of inward grace. NewAdvent.com is not the best authority on church teachings, but I think that their definition might help you understand how I (& other Catholics) view our sacraments. The "inward grace" is a gift from God; we acknowledge that gift, in part, by how we live our lives. It is our choices, our decisions which either separate us from the body of Christ or bring us closer to Him. Regarding Holy Communion, it was not too long ago that most Catholics chose to refrain from receiving the Eucharist if they had not been to confession that week. That being said, if the woman in your example had no other choice, most of the Catholic priests that I know would not ask her to refrain from receiving Holy Communion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 [quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1310421957' post='2265923'] That being said, if the woman in your example had no other choice, most of the Catholic priests that I know would not ask her to refrain from receiving Holy Communion. [/quote] I'm glad you said that, it seemed a bit harsh to me, for this lady. She would have been feeling bad enough, both physically and emotionally. At times like this a person needs unconditional love and support. There probably is many differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, I am not sure whether this man's statement was totally aligned with his church's position but he seemed very intelligent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 (edited) [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1310421337' post='2265918'] It comes down to a difference of opinion on who the funeral is for: the family or the deceased. I maintain that it is primarily for the family, and that denying them the ability to bury their loved-one in a Catholic milieu in the name of avoiding "scandal" sounds an awful lot like public relations 101 to me. It's like whenever an athlete or celebrity does something stupid/criminal and all of their endorsements deals dry up. At the end of the day, it's a mass--which is the ultimate form of prayer-- [i]in honor[/i] the deceased, [i]for[/i]their family. No matter how nefarious the person, or public/private the sin, it's no matter--we all need prayers. [/quote] Sorry, but I just don't understand this having a Mass in honor of the dead for the dead's family...being that the Mass is centered on worshipping Jesus Christ. Edited July 12, 2011 by Papist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1310477676' post='2266312'] Sorry, but I just don't understand this having a Mass in honor of the dead for the dead's family...being that the Mass is centered on worshipping Jesus Christ. [/quote] Then what is the point of the Requiem mass, for anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 (edited) [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1310478106' post='2266315'] Then what is the point of the Requiem mass, for anyone? [/quote] I am taking your argument as a whole, not in parts. Funeral mass, is for the deceased...not the family. The deceased does not have an unconditional right to a funeral mass, nor does the family have a right to have a funeral mass for a deceased. There's canon law that address the funeral rite and it is clear. Also, if the deceased was openly, freely[by choice] and with full knowledge living in disobedience with Church teachings on faith and morals, I'd wonder how the priest would dance around that in the homily. There was a recent funeral mass for a very famous Massachusetts Senator not too long ago that comes to mind, which I believe was scandalous. Edited July 12, 2011 by Papist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1310453036' post='2266263'] I'm glad you said that, it seemed a bit harsh to me, for this lady. She would have been feeling bad enough, both physically and emotionally. At times like this a person needs unconditional love and support. There probably is many differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, I am not sure whether this man's statement was totally aligned with his church's position but he seemed very intelligent.[/quote] I don't think it's harsh when put in context: [quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1310421957' post='2265923']Regarding Holy Communion, it was not too long ago that most Catholics chose to refrain from receiving the Eucharist if they had not been to confession that week. [/quote] I would guess that, if asked, your Orthodox Christian friend would say that anyone with sin on their soul should receive the sacrament of reconciliation before receiving Holy Communion. If I understand correctly, the Catholic Church allows receipt of the Eucharist when a person only has venial sins, though those sins must still be confessed. (Can a clergy member jump in here?) Also - being asked to refrain from receiving Holy Communion is not punishment, it certainly does not mean that the person is not loved fully by the church. It is an outward sign of the interior disposition of the person. Receiving the Eucharist is not a right nor a reward, it's a sacrament. Back to the topic, kinda: [size="2"]I once attended a Catholic service (not a mass) that was held at a funeral home for a man who would [i]not[/i] have met many objective standards for being faithful[/size] to the Magisterium. He wanted a Catholic service, the local priest worked with the family so that they could grant their dad's wish. It did not even enter anyone's mind that the service should be an actual mass held in a Catholic church, since the man stopped going to mass himself so long ago. Only one of his grown children remained Catholic, but rarely attended mass. The idea that someone who doesn't go to church should expect a full Catholic mass funeral is just strange to me. I also think it would also be strange for the church to deny a funeral to someone who was a regular, participating member, regardless of the person's own struggles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1310479483' post='2266321'] I am taking your argument as a whole, not in parts. Funeral mass, is for the deceased...not the family. The deceased does not have an unconditional right to a funeral mass, nor does the family have a right to have a funeral mass for a deceased. There's canon law that address the funeral rite and it is clear. Also, if the deceased was openly, freely[by choice] and with full knowledge living in disobedience with Church teachings on faith and morals, I'd wonder how the priest would dance around that in the homily. There was a recent funeral mass for a very famous Massachusetts Senator not too long ago that comes to mind, which I believe was scandalous. [/quote] from "http://www.canonlaw.info/2009/08/catholic-funeral-for-ted-kennedy.html" [font="Arial"][size=2][quote]Most of Teddy Kennedy's politics, and most of whatever parts of his personal life I knew through the media, angered and sometimes even disgusted me. But my opinions about Teddy's legacy are not at issue in assessing his right to a Catholic funeral under canon law. I trust that my writings on the proper understanding and correct application of [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4C.HTM"]1983 CIC 1184[/url] (the canon regulating the funeral rites to be accorded - - or not, as the case may be - - to Catholics) are reasonably well-known to readers of this blog.* So let's move directly to the canonical question of Kennedy's funeral. Now, any man with a 100% rating from NARAL (to highlight just the [url="http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/aug/09082601.html"]tip of the iceberg[/url] of Teddy's decades-long campaign against natural rights) has, to put it mildly, the burden of proof in seeking a Catholic funeral (okay, technically, his [i]executors[/i] have the burden of proof, but you see the point) in that notorious pro-aborts seem to be "manifest sinners who cannot be granted ecclesiastical funerals without public scandal of the faithful." [i]Unless[/i], that is, "they gave some sign of repentance before death." And there is at least some evidence that Ted Kennedy did just that. [/size][url="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/us/politics/27year.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1251360295-9UFl18aKR9Iujx7O6Q8agg"][size=2]Mark Leibovich of the [i]New York Times[/i] notes that[/size][/url][size=2], among things, "The Rev. Mark Hession, the priest at the Kennedys' parish on the Cape, made regular visits to the Kennedy home this summer and held a private family Mass in the living room every Sunday. Even in his final days, Mr. Kennedy led the family in prayer after the death of his sister Eunice . . . [and when] the senator's condition took a turn Tuesday night a priest, the Rev. Patrick Tarrant of Our Lady of Victory Church in Centerville, was called to his bedside." Folks, my reading of the canonical tradition behind Canon 1184[b]**[/b] says that those actions suffice as "some signs of repentance", making Ted Kennedy eligible for a Catholic funeral. Of course I wish that Teddy's repentance, if that is what it was, had been more explicit, for the scandal the man left was enormous and demanded great atonement in this life (or more dreadfully in the next). [/size][size=2]But o[/size][size=2]n the narrow question as to whether Edward Kennedy is eligible for a Catholic funeral, the information before me suggests that he is, and that a bishop who permits such rites can find support in the Code of Canon Law for his decision.[/quote][/size][/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1310406240' post='2265782'] Denying a sacrament isn't a temporal punishment. It is a recognition of a truth, that the person isn't entitled to one. Sacraments aren't rights, they are privileges. The reason I equated this to a non-veteran asking for a military funeral, or a non-mason requesting a funeral at the masonic hall, is because asking for a Catholic funeral when you haven't led your life as a Catholic, is just as silly. The sacraments of reconciliation and anointing are how we "rejoin" the club. They are easy, and given when asked for by a fallen away Catholic. He didn't ask, because he didn't want. [/quote] Good analogy there Catherine. Expanding on the funeral example....I was in the USAF for about 5.5 months. Never went to field training or anything. I have an Honorable Discharge. Am I entitled to a military funeral with full honors on the taxpayers dime? NO. I was in the military, took the oath, and wore the uniform. But due to my own stupidity, I separated myself from it. A such I do not have the right to claim veteran's benefits or anything else that an airman who completed training and a full term should get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 [quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1310490655' post='2266374'] The idea that someone who doesn't go to church should expect a full Catholic mass funeral is just strange to me. [/quote] That is just an extension of the whacked mindset we encounter in parents who bring their kids for the sacraments, then disappear. They think Catholicism is a series of boxes to check on a form. These are the same peeps who throw a fit when the priest will not baptize their child because they do not attend Mass regularly, are not married in the Church, don't want to attend prep classes, and have no intention of fixing any of these situations. THE CAFETERIA IS CLOSED FOLKS! IF YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH, TRY ..........nevermind. Was gonna type something uncharitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 [quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1310491685' post='2266384'] [quote]"some signs of repentance", making Ted Kennedy eligible for a Catholic funeral.[/quote] [/quote] He met with priests and bishops for decades and he never bent. I am to assume he did b/c a meeting(s) were close to his death. Oh well. I glad the decision's the Church's and not mine, because it is my fundamental conviction that my intelligence is limited and the Church is wiser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 [quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1310490655' post='2266374'] The idea that someone who doesn't go to church should expect a full Catholic mass funeral is just strange to me. [/quote] But the man from the original article DID go to Church. He was denied because he was gay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1310493484' post='2266393'] But the man from the original article DID go to Church. He was denied because he was gay. [/quote] Maybe that played into the decision to reverse the denial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 [quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1310495384' post='2266410'] Maybe that played into the decision to reverse the denial. [/quote] The denial got reversed? For real? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1310406240' post='2265782'] Denying a sacrament isn't a temporal punishment. It is a recognition of a truth, that the person isn't entitled to one. Sacraments aren't rights, they are privileges. The reason I equated this to a non-veteran asking for a military funeral, or a non-mason requesting a funeral at the masonic hall, is because asking for a Catholic funeral when you haven't led your life as a Catholic, is just as silly. The sacraments of reconciliation and anointing are how we "rejoin" the club. They are easy, and given when asked for by a fallen away Catholic. He didn't ask, because he didn't want. [/quote] Excellent points! (But apparently you didn't get the memo about how Church policy is now to be dictated by popular public opinion. Church leaders in the 21st century need to evolve to the level of American politicians and consult the latest gallup polls before doing anything.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1310495520' post='2266415'] Excellent points! (But apparently you didn't get the memo about how Church policy is now to be dictated by popular public opinion. Church leaders in the 21st century need to evolve to the level of American politicians and consult the latest gallup polls before doing anything.) [/quote] Nah, but I'd expect a more conciliatory and loving stance than the Ayatollah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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