kujo Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1310144373' post='2264505'] YOUR logic falls apart every time you (or anyone else) draws a relationship between a homosexual and Hitler or Goebbels. [/quote] "Oh no! The Catholic Church has to come out with a strong stance against Brawny paper towels because Hitler used them, and continuing to use them would scandalize the faithful, implying that we support the murder of millions and millions of people!" Edited July 8, 2011 by kujo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Understand the ridiculousness of your argument here, guys. In essence, you're playing fill-in the blank with the same cheat-sheet used by PR agents around the world: "<Insert client's name> must to take a strong stance in favor/against <insert social issue> because <insert nefarious historical figure> support[ed/s] it. Failing to do so would scandalize the faithful and the public at-large because it would imply that we support <insert description dastardly-deed committed by the aforementioned person>." On Phatmass, the historical figure is typically Hitler, Obama or Margaret Sanger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I think when I die I should ask for a full Masonic funeral. My grandfather was one. I don't believe in Masonic ideals. Never attended a meeting. Have publicly denounced them, and never followed their rules. But, I understand they have a pretty cool looking facility, and it would make a great backdrop for my funeral pictures. I hear they put out a nice funeral dinner spread too. It doesn't matter that I'm a Catholic female, it would be discrimination for them to turn my funeral down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1310146151' post='2264514'] I think when I die I should ask for a full Masonic funeral. My grandfather was one. I don't believe in Masonic ideals. Never attended a meeting. Have publicly denounced them, and never followed their rules. But, I understand they have a pretty cool looking facility, and it would make a great backdrop for my funeral pictures. I hear they put out a nice funeral dinner spread too. It doesn't matter that I'm a Catholic female, it would be discrimination for them to turn my funeral down. [/quote] Catherine, Your superb wit and sarcasm aside, you (and others) and myself continue to have a fantastically different POV on this subject. We could probably go back and forth for a few dozen more pages on it. But it seems like the topic has run its course, with nothing fruitful being discussed. Maybe it's time to close the thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) [quote] Local businessman and devout Catholic John Sanfilippo died last week after struggling with emphysema. Friends said Sanfilippo planned for the funeral mass to be held at Our Lady of the Rosary Catholic Church in Little Italy, where Sanfilippo had attended for decades. Friends said he even left the church a large sum of money in his will.[/quote] This seems to me to be a qualifier for this guy's link with the Church, I am guessing this relatinship with the Church wasn't only one way. kujo, although you don't need my permission, please feel free to answer questions asked of me on this public forum. I'm pretty much in agreement with most things you have been saying, even though you are a Catholic and I am an Atheist, we are probably both humanists as well. BTW I live in a completely different timezone to most here. Hard to have a two-way conversation, if you are expecting immediate responses. And totally yes, the topic of this thread is about the church's response to a gay man. But also, I thought I articulated well enough that I am concerned with the consequences, when some practitioners take on board the teaching and take undesirable actions on non Catholics within our society. So far in this forum I have also argued against all male priesthood, the right to carry guns, Atheism being Nihlistic, if anyone is keeping track. Those were threads too. I haven't got around to arguing all of my opinions just yet Edited July 8, 2011 by stevil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1310150801' post='2264557'] kujo, although you don't need my permission, please feel free to answer questions asked of me on this public forum. I'm pretty much in agreement with most things you have been saying, even though you are a Catholic and I am an Atheist, we are probably both humanists as well. BTW I live in a completely different timezone to most here. Hard to have a two-way conversation, if you are expecting immediate responses. [/quote] Me: Havok: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1310144373' post='2264505'] YOUR logic falls apart every time you (or anyone else) draws a relationship between a homosexual and Hitler or Goebbels. [/quote] i never compared hitler and homosexuals, but noce try. your the one who made the corralation. you, not i made the comparison. i was responding to what you said in the previous post that dealt with EVERY person who was baptized catholic. you said that you think anyone who was baptized catholic, if their family wants, should be give a catholic funeral. i point out how your arguement doesn't work, unless your ok with hitler getting a catholic funeral and instead try to claim i made the comparison between hitler and homosexuals. see, this is when you know someone has no leg to stand on. they refuse to answer your questions and instead twist your words just so they can claim something false and avoid the question. if someone is sure of their position and sure they are right they will have no fear answering your questions and proving you wrong. if someone knows their position is wrong, they will do whatever they can to avoid the question. so whenever your done, i would still like an answer. you said any person baptized a catholic, if their family wishes, should be given a catholic funeral. so, should hitler have been given a catholic funeral if his family had wanted him to have a catholic funeral? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1310150931' post='2264560'] Me: Havok: [/quote] this picture above is exactly right. i beat my head against a wall try to understand how someone can say they are catholic but go against so many of the catholic church teaches and instead be more in line with the athiest montra. how someone who says they are catholic would rather tout the athiest company line then the catholic church line considering they call themself catholic. i beat my head against the wall because i actually feel bad about the situation your in and it seems the more and more you post on here the farther away you get from catholic teaching. so yes, the picture of me beating my head against the wall is accurate. i will pray for you tonight. Edited July 8, 2011 by havok579257 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I think you misunderstood those pictures. I was dancing while you banged your head against the wall. You doing that MAKES me dance, while me dancing MAKES you bang your head against the wall. I am not an atheist but I don't see that as a dirty word either. You do. I think people all have their own opinions, and most come to them honestly and with a desire for truth. Doesn't make their opinions right, but it should make it easier to see the humanity behind those opinions. And Havok, you ARE implying that there is a relationship with gays and Hitler; you're saying that allowing a gay person to have a Catholic funeral is analogous to giving Hitler one! It's called analogical reasoning. Look it up. I refuse to answer your ludicrous question because it is not the slightest bit germane to this conversation. You can call it a cop out, but it's my decision to make. Thanks for the prayers, though. Unlike an atheist, I do believe in God and I know that He hears our prayers, regardless of the passive aggressive intentione behind them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1310152424' post='2264577'] this picture above is exactly right. i beat my head against a wall try to understand how someone can say they are catholic but go against so many of the catholic church teaches and instead be more in line with the athiest montra. how someone who says they are catholic would rather tout the athiest company line then the catholic church line considering they call themself catholic. i beat my head against the wall because i actually feel bad about the situation your in and it seems the more and more you post on here the farther away you get from catholic teaching. so yes, the picture of me beating my head against the wall is accurate. i will pray for you tonight. [/quote] Please forgive me kujo, I feel compelled to answer this post which is so obviously directed at you LOL With kujo I don't see a battle line drawn between Catholics and Atheists, there is no war to fight. Just because I say something that does not mean this opinion is the Atheistic stance, I have not claimed it on behalf of all Atheists and I don't think that this should drive an instant and immediate response of disapproval from Catholics with a motive to disown all things Atheistic including opinions. If you looked at the totallity of things you would find that we are much more alike than you probably think. With regards to being aligned with the Catholic church, I am unqualified to know who is more aligned, you or kujo. It is not clear to me. Kujo seems to be compassionate and understanding and seems to be tolerant of others, I would think these good traits might be aligned with the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1310154555' post='2264596'] I think you misunderstood those pictures. I was dancing while you banged your head against the wall. You doing that MAKES me dance, while me dancing MAKES you bang your head against the wall. I am not an atheist but I don't see that as a dirty word either. You do. I think people all have their own opinions, and most come to them honestly and with a desire for truth. Doesn't make their opinions right, but it should make it easier to see the humanity behind those opinions. And Havok, you ARE implying that there is a relationship with gays and Hitler; you're saying that allowing a gay person to have a Catholic funeral is analogous to giving Hitler one! It's called analogical reasoning. Look it up. I refuse to answer your ludicrous question because it is not the slightest bit germane to this conversation. You can call it a cop out, but it's my decision to make. Thanks for the prayers, though. Unlike an atheist, I do believe in God and I know that He hears our prayers, regardless of the passive aggressive intentione behind them. [/quote] i am not implying giving a gay person a funeral has any relationship to hitler. i am saying giving everyone who was baptized catholic no matter if they are faithful or heritical is the same as giving hitler a catholic funeral. fine, let's approch this another way. do you think anyone who was baptized catholic, no matter what, should be allowed to have a catholic funeral? that as long as you are baptized a catholic, no matter what you did in life against your fellow man or against God and the church, you should be allowed a catholic funeral? there was no passive agressiveness meant. when i prya it will be with sincerity that you come to accept the catholic church completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1310154626' post='2264597'] Please forgive me kujo, I feel compelled to answer this post which is so obviously directed at you LOL With kujo I don't see a battle line drawn between Catholics and Atheists, there is no war to fight. Just because I say something that does not mean this opinion is the Atheistic stance, I have not claimed it on behalf of all Atheists and I don't think that this should drive an instant and immediate response of disapproval from Catholics with a motive to disown all things Atheistic including opinions. If you looked at the totallity of things you would find that we are much more alike than you probably think. With regards to being aligned with the Catholic church, I am unqualified to know who is more aligned, you or kujo. It is not clear to me. Kujo seems to be compassionate and understanding and seems to be tolerant of others, I would think these good traits might be aligned with the Church. [/quote] n/m Edited July 8, 2011 by havok579257 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1310155103' post='2264600'] i am not implying giving a gay person a funeral has any relationship to hitler. i am saying giving everyone who was baptized catholic no matter if they are faithful or heritical is the same as giving hitler a catholic funeral. fine, let's approch this another way. do you think anyone who was baptized catholic, no matter what, should be allowed to have a catholic funeral? that as long as you are baptized a catholic, no matter what you did in life against your fellow man or against God and the church, you should be allowed a catholic funeral? there was no passive agressiveness meant. when i prya it will be with sincerity that you come to accept the catholic church completely. [/quote] Havok, I'm done with this. Read this article on [url="http://groups.psych.northwestern.edu/gentner/papers/Gentner02a.pdf"]analogical reasoning[/url] while I will pray that you get over your need for my approval. Edited July 8, 2011 by kujo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1310155103' post='2264600'] there was no passive agressiveness meant. when i prya it will be with sincerity that you come to accept the catholic church completely. [/quote] When people pray for others, why do they tell them before doing it? Is it common curtesy or is it because they want them to feel that they need praying for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1310155335' post='2264605'] When people pray for others, why do they tell them before doing it? Is it common curtesy or is it because they want them to feel that they need praying for? [/quote] You're a pretty savvy atheist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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