An Honest And Civil Discussion On The Modesty & Bikinis

[MissyP89]

Jlawl, you're the best. After being on here for years and listening to men talk about how they struggle with lust for even modest women, it [i]makes[/i] a girl a little paranoid that everyone is thinking about her. *shudder*

Maybe that's why I disappeared from here for a long time. (Hope this finds you well, btw!)

[BG45]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1310277062' post='2265241']
reading through this thread is like listening to people complain about the fuel economy of their yachts. In that this is all problems i really have never had and cant really understand.


I am definitely a "fullblooded" guy, but i cant say i really think about any of this stuff. reading this thread i get the impression that the ladies are seeing guys slobbering and masturbating staring at them(admittedly,not a pleasant image) and that the hypothetical guys who are concerned about chastity have to run a gauntlet of ravenous succubi just to get to the water.

Am i the only one who just goes to the beach and swims?

sometimes i will go "oh, she is pretty" or "lol that guy should probably go up a size or three in the shorts department" but generally i just go swimming.
[/quote]

I don't think of ravenous succubi, I think of the fact I'm fat and no one wants to see my body.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1310277062' post='2265241']
reading through this thread is like listening to people complain about the fuel economy of their yachts. In that this is all problems i really have never had and cant really understand.


I am definitely a "fullblooded" guy, but i cant say i really think about any of this stuff. reading this thread i get the impression that the ladies are seeing guys slobbering and masturbating staring at them(admittedly,not a pleasant image) and that the hypothetical guys who are concerned about chastity have to run a gauntlet of ravenous succubi just to get to the water.

Am i the only one who just goes to the beach and swims?

sometimes i will go "oh, she is pretty" or "lol that guy should probably go up a size or three in the shorts department" but generally i just go swimming.
[/quote]

I think as pps have said, it is somewhat of an (over?) reaction to the dominant cultural forces at work, which are all about objectifying the body and degrading sexuality. If you are the slightest bit concerned with being modest in this culture, the status quo can be so revolting it's tempting to swing way too far in the opposite direction. I think it's important to keep in mind context, too - yes these are clothes you wouldn't wear in public for just walking around, but they're swimwear, not everyday clothes! Pretty much from the beginning, women's swimming clothes have different greatly in modesty and style from their street clothing. We wear different clothes in different contexts.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1310277615' post='2265244']
Jlawl, you're the best. After being on here for years and listening to men talk about how they struggle with lust for even modest women, it [i]makes[/i] a girl a little paranoid that everyone is thinking about her. *shudder*

Maybe that's why I disappeared from here for a long time. (Hope this finds you well, btw!)
[/quote]

well, if it would make you feel better i would say that no dude lusts after ya, but that is both insulting (lol) and probably not true(hehe)

finds me well enough. just sitting here in my shorts, currently not being mounted by 30 half crazed she-lions.

maybe i need to buy a different set of shorts


[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1310277742' post='2265245']
I don't think of ravenous succubi, I think of the fact I'm fat and no one wants to see my body.
[/quote]

Just wait until you win all the Cannonball and bellyflop contests, Girls love a winner.

you are gonna have to beat them away from your welted skin with a stick

[BG45]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1310278289' post='2265250']

Just wait until you win all the Cannonball and bellyflop contests, Girls love a winner.

you are gonna have to beat them away from your welted skin with a stick
[/quote]

Somehow I doubt that LOL. Though my cannonball is pretty good!

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1310278228' post='2265249']
We wear different clothes in different contexts.
[/quote]


Thats what i told them when i wore my slinky red dress to work!

"but i only wear jeans at home!" i said, but i still got escorted off the premises

Edited July 10, 2011 by Jesus_lol

[MissyP89]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1310278402' post='2265252']
Thats what i told them when i wore my slinky red dress to work!
[/quote]

HOLY COW. AFTER HOURS AT PHATMASS JUST GOT CRAY CRAY.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1310274636' post='2265216']
thanks Missy.

just for that?
[img]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2454/3883382922_161fa35504.jpg[/img]

link doesn't work because of the philter. google pioneer woman and grilled ribeye steak with onion blue che[i][/i]ese.


website?
[/quote]

I got mine at a regional store, but it is available online.

[url="http://www.swimoutlet.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=22750&Click=205964"]Maxine of Hollywood Elegant Touch Empire Swimdress[/url]

The one offered is a plus-size dress, but they have others on their website from Maxine of Hollywood.

[Cherie]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1310279656' post='2265261']
I got mine at a regional store, but it is available online.

[url="http://www.swimoutlet.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=22750&Click=205964"]Maxine of Hollywood Elegant Touch Empire Swimdress[/url]

The one offered is a plus-size dress, but they have others on their website from Maxine of Hollywood.
[/quote]

For me, I like swimdresses. I think they're fine but the one problem I have with the one you link to is that I could [i]never[/i] wear it because it comes too low. That's a problem with a lot of swimsuits - that one, honestly, while it might not be considered immodest for others would definitely be immodest for me.

Something like this goes up pretty high but I would like that:
[img]http://www.shabbyapple.com/images/Product/icon/980.jpg[/img]

Or this might work:

[img]http://blissfullydomestic.com/wp-content/uploads/not-your-grandmas-swim-dress-221x300.jpg[/img]

And I know other people might think ... but I *LOVE* this one (but it's waay to expensive, even on sale):

[img]http://modestsea.com/files/products/ModerateCover/evafront.jpg[/img]


I thank everyone for their opinions! I especially thank LuxChristi for the references to the Catechism! That will definitely be something I turn to now when I have discussions with others about modesty, and I'm literally going to memorize some of those passages.

But I guess I still don't see the answer to my question, really -- morally speaking, how can one defend a bikini specifically?

Yes, swimwear is different than "everyday clothes", and that's why there are things I'd wear to a pool or a beach that I'd never wear anywhere else. And that's ok - but I don't think a bikini is ever ok.


Also, I would be interested in furthering the discussion on cultural norms that you mentioned, Maggie - here's a discussion point I have on that: when Josemaria Escriva had members of Opus Dei go into certain tribal areas in Africa, they told the natives to wear shoes. Not because wearing shoes was WRONG, but that they were called to [i]elevate the culture,[/i] (as we all are - that was a common phrase in religious life for us: "elevate the conversation") and weaitring shoes was more elevated than always going barefoot. Others might roll their eyes or be angry about that - but I think that is a good thing. Just like I think I would have encouraged a topless woman from that particular tribe to wear clothing. For her, not wearing a shirt isn't wrong per se. But I'd appeal to the Catechism on that, especially if she was at a papal Mass (where I'm sure others outside of their culture were attending): we should cover "what should remain hidden" and be reserved "where there is a risk of unhealthy curiosity." Then again, even the Catechism states: "The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another." I'd love to further discussion on this aspect!


Also, although "modesty of heart" is necessary just as much as modesty of clothing, I think the answer to immodesty [i]can be[/i] to put on more clothes. Like with the bikini - I think those women should put on more clothes. And while discussion on modesty can definitely spiral down into the Puritanical (and I think many have Puritanical views on modesty) I don't think that aspect is, because sometimes people [i]should[/i] put on more clothes!

[Maggyie]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1310301304' post='2265274']
For me, I like swimdresses. I think they're fine but the one problem I have with the one you link to is that I could [i]never[/i] wear it because it comes too low. That's a problem with a lot of swimsuits - that one, honestly, while it might not be considered immodest for others would definitely be immodest for me.

Something like this goes up pretty high but I would like that:
[img]http://www.shabbyapple.com/images/Product/icon/980.jpg[/img]

Or this might work:

[img]http://blissfullydomestic.com/wp-content/uploads/not-your-grandmas-swim-dress-221x300.jpg[/img]

And I know other people might think ... but I *LOVE* this one (but it's waay to expensive, even on sale):

[img]http://modestsea.com/files/products/ModerateCover/evafront.jpg[/img]


I thank everyone for their opinions! I especially thank LuxChristi for the references to the Catechism! That will definitely be something I turn to now when I have discussions with others about modesty, and I'm literally going to memorize some of those passages.

But I guess I still don't see the answer to my question, really -- morally speaking, how can one defend a bikini specifically?

Yes, swimwear is different than "everyday clothes", and that's why there are things I'd wear to a pool or a beach that I'd never wear anywhere else. And that's ok - but I don't think a bikini is ever ok.


Also, I would be interested in furthering the discussion on cultural norms that you mentioned, Maggie - here's a discussion point I have on that: when Josemaria Escriva had members of Opus Dei go into certain tribal areas in Africa, they told the natives to wear shoes. Not because wearing shoes was WRONG, but that they were called to [i]elevate the culture,[/i] (as we all are - that was a common phrase in religious life for us: "elevate the conversation") and weaitring shoes was more elevated than always going barefoot. Others might roll their eyes or be angry about that - but I think that is a good thing. Just like I think I would have encouraged a topless woman from that particular tribe to wear clothing. For her, not wearing a shirt isn't wrong per se. But I'd appeal to the Catechism on that, especially if she was at a papal Mass (where I'm sure others outside of their culture were attending): we should cover "what should remain hidden" and be reserved "where there is a risk of unhealthy curiosity." Then again, even the Catechism states: "The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another." I'd love to further discussion on this aspect!


Also, although "modesty of heart" is necessary just as much as modesty of clothing, I think the answer to immodesty [i]can be[/i] to put on more clothes. Like with the bikini - I think those women should put on more clothes. And while discussion on modesty can definitely spiral down into the Puritanical (and I think many have Puritanical views on modesty) I don't think that aspect is, because sometimes people [i]should[/i] put on more clothes!
[/quote]

I think MOST people should definitely be putting more regular clothes back on! At a certain point when standards have sunk so low. it's hard to say whether there are standards anymore at all I think modesty is a very subjective thing, and on some women perhaps a bikini could be considered modest (if she was swimming and not just laying out on the beach). There are different levels within that, too; there are two-pieces that offer a lot of coverage and then there are string bikinis which in our culture are obviously completely inappropriate in public.

The shoes part is interesting to me, the ironic thing is that currently there is a mini-movement among runners to go back to running barefoot! Apparently all these studies are coming out showing that Western athletic shoes are terrible for your feet and make people more prone to injury. The shoe industry is even coming out with "barely there" shoes - Nike has the Nike Free shoe - that are supposed to mimic the barefoot experience. I hate to sound like a cultural relativist but that is one of my problems with St. Josemaria, that his wonderful organization unfortunately has some "colonial" attitudes toward the people they are evangelizing, instead of wondering hmmm I wonder what we can learn from these people, yes we can give them the Gospel but do they have gifts they can give us? Just the assumption that oh yes, we wear shoes so that's what's best and everyone should wear them to strive to reach our level of elevation. As opposed to (IMO) more genuine efforts to elevate the culture like teaching Christian respect for women and alternatives to the domestic and sexual violence common in these countries.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1310277062' post='2265241']Am i the only one who just goes to the beach and swims?
[/quote]
Yes.

Bikinis have nothing to do with swimming. Women show off their bodies at the beach because they want to be seen. Men go to the beach because they want to see women (and the younger men usually want to show themselves off too).

The only people who wear bikinis for swimming purposes are men. Although technically I guess it's not a "bikini" but a swimming speedo. Those things should be phased out like 1980s basketball shorts.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Era Might

[Cherie]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1310305541' post='2265288']
I hate to sound like a cultural relativist but that is one of my problems with St. Josemaria, that his wonderful organization unfortunately has some "colonial" attitudes toward the people they are evangelizing, instead of wondering hmmm I wonder what we can learn from these people, yes we can give them the Gospel but do they have gifts they can give us? Just the assumption that oh yes, we wear shoes so that's what's best and everyone should wear them to strive to reach our level of elevation. As opposed to (IMO) more genuine efforts to elevate the culture like teaching Christian respect for women and alternatives to the domestic and sexual violence common in these countries.
[/quote]

That's a good point, and I think it depends on your views about that. I'm not a cultural relativist, but I'm not a colonialist either - I think the "middle ground" is more appropriate. The "shoe thing" appealed to me because of my time in religious life, where we were constantly trying to elevate the culture, most especially by conversation. And it wasn't because the conversation was [i]wrong,[/i] we were simply supposed to elevate it because that's the better thing (there's bad, there's good, there's better, and there's best). For example, a long conversation about food was not encouraged. Is talking about food wrong? No, but it's a rather base topic of conversation (unless you're a chef I guess). (Actually I think St. Francis de Sales talks somewhere about how food is a base topic of conversation - I know St. Alphonsus Liguori does, too). We were encouraged to gear conversations like that more toward loftier subjects - not necessarily only and always about God, but about more intelligent topics (instead of constant opinions: "I like this" or "I like that" ... it's so geared towards selfishness!)

Anyway, I do think there is value in things like that. I don't think it's right to go in and change a culture completely or try and make it conform to another so-called "better" culture -- but I think some things are worth considering and introducing to those cultures, like shoes and tops. (And even if there is a movement for runners to go barefoot, that's fine - there are certainly times when going barefoot is acceptable or better than wearing shoes, like in my house -- please do not wear your shoes in my house! And for babies, they should learn to walk barefoot rather than in shoes.) I think some people with a "cultural relativist" mindset would also be against going in to a culture and teaching them about Christ. But the "middle ground" question about introducing a culture to new things (like shoes and shirts) is: how much is too much?

In my opinion, I've witnessed Christians around me and I think they get bogged down by the things of the world and look at efforts like that as ridiculous. ("Why should it matter what I wear? Why should it matter what I talk about? I'm not running around naked or swearing like a sailor!") But I'm of the opinion we have a higher calling. If becoming a Saint means I need to work on elevating my conversation or being more modest, however difficult or annoying or tiresome it may be, I'm willing to do it. I think especially in today's culture we're called to be outside the cultural norms ("counter-cultural"). No, we're not supposed to be so separated from the culture that we look odd (for example the Amish way of dealing with modern culture is just that - they are proud of the fact they're considered "odd" by outsiders) ... but remember, we ARE called to be "counter-cultural". That was one of the first things I learned in my Catholic school as a kid - I remember they illustrated it with a fish swimming against the current where all the other fish were swimming with it.

Anyway I could go on forever - it was a topic much discussed when I was in religious life and something I enjoy discussing. But I'm getting a little off topic, I think. Maybe I should start another thread, haha

[MissyP89]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1310307302' post='2265292']
Yes.

Bikinis have nothing to do with swimming. Women show off their bodies at the beach because they want to be seen.[/quote]

And to tan.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1310307302' post='2265292']
Yes.

Bikinis have nothing to do with swimming. Women show off their bodies at the beach because they want to be seen. Men go to the beach because they want to see women (and the younger men usually want to show themselves off too).

The only people who wear bikinis for swimming purposes are men. Although technically I guess it's not a "bikini" but a swimming speedo. Those things should be phased out like 1980s basketball shorts.
[/quote]

I spent one summer doing research at a university in Boston during my college years. One weekend I participated in a trip to a nearby beach. A very nice young lady asked me why I wanted to go. She didn't understand why Black people go to the beach when we are already tan.

I'm from the Caribbean, and I now live in a beach town / vacation destination along the Gulf Coast of the US. People come to the beach to swim, to surf, to play in the sand, and for myriad other reasons do not involve wanting attention.

Bikinis are also worn for convenience - taking off a one piece to use the bathroom is work! Who here has used a public bathroom at a beach? Trust me when I say that a two-piece is the way to go.

Not all two-piece swimsuits are skimpy, but around here the skimpy ones are not uncommon. Women of all sizes and shapes wear them. Truth is, they are easier to fit and they are more adjustable. The ultra-conservative swimsuits are more expensive and only fit that specific size and shape woman. If a lady were to gain or lose weight, she would have to buy another swimsuit. So don't paint all bikini wearing women as seductive temptresses. Some are just regular ladies who grew up around this and find it normal.

[Era Might]

[quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1310311868' post='2265304']People come to the beach to swim, to surf, to play in the sand, and for myriad other reasons do not involve wanting attention.[/quote]
I was half joking. Of course not literally everyone is at the beach for show and tell. But that is part of the beach culture.

[quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1310311868' post='2265304']So don't paint all bikini wearing women as seductive temptresses. Some are just regular ladies who grew up around this and find it normal.
[/quote]
I did not call anyone a "seductive temptress." That would imply that the men are somehow "prey." The men know exactly what's going on. They want to see women. They are not helpless bystanders.

Women showing off their bodies is, as you say, considered normal. Not just at the beach, out in public. I've seen ladies wearing some pretty crazy stuff (not even at the beach, just out in public). Nobody wears those kinds of clothes unless they want people to see them. That doesn't necessarily make them "seductive temptresses." You're from the Caribbean, you may be familiar with "Carnival" type parties, where many women in the parade are dressed rather scantily. Same with cheerleaders, female bartenders, whatever. It is considered normal for women to show off their bodies, and for men to watch. Beach wear is part of that culture.

Go to the beach, look around, and tell me that the scantily clad women there don't want to be seen. I don't buy it. I never called them "seductive temptresses," but swimming is hardly the first consideration for beach wear.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Era Might

[regina_coeli]

Random thoughts from someone who loves the water, has fair Celtic skin that burns fast, and just returned from a beach trip--

competitive swim suits are all about reducing drag. remember the coverall suits of the last olympics? not your 1990's speedo any more!
competitive women's suits have always had high necks that would make CM comfortable
check out Lands End-- they have lots of swim skirts and shorts, and everything is on sale now ( and a two piece is way easier in the "facilities")
at the beach many babies and toddlers wore shorts and shirts combos-- to prevent sunburn! fashionable but very modest. saw quite a few middle school children with the combos as well
women in tropical counties who are topless are usually nursing babies 24/7. this is a healthy way of spacing children in environments where nutrition is not the best. only westerners think of this as provocative

I think masses of bikinis become mind numbing, but worry about the growing skin cancer rates!

[dominicansoul]

The Blessed Virgin Mary told the children at Fatima that there would be many "styles" that would offend God very much. I shudder to think that any woman would find wearing two strings barely covering her breast and bum as "normal." But since that is the case, Our Lady's words are very prophetic...

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1310313852' post='2265311']
I was half joking. Of course not literally everyone is at the beach for show and tell. But that is part of the beach culture.


I did not call anyone a "seductive temptress." That would imply that the men are somehow "prey." The men know exactly what's going on. They want to see women. They are not helpless bystanders.

Women showing off their bodies is, as you say, considered normal. Not just at the beach, out in public. I've seen ladies wearing some pretty crazy stuff (not even at the beach, just out in public). Nobody wears those kinds of clothes unless they want people to see them. That doesn't necessarily make them "seductive temptresses." You're from the Caribbean, you may be familiar with "Carnival" type parties, where many women in the parade are dressed rather scantily. Same with cheerleaders, female bartenders, whatever. It is considered normal for women to show off their bodies, and for men to watch. Beach wear is part of that culture.[/quote]

There are also many women who do not wear skimpy outfits anywhere except the beach. They're not competitive swimmers, they're at the beach to relax and enjoy the water. The beach here has dangerous rip currents and sometimes rough surf, so they mostly just splash around or play with their kids in the water anyway.

Personally, I can't stand carnival or reggae sunsplash or any other excuse people use to act a fool when in the Caribbean.

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1310313852' post='2265311']Go to the beach, look around, and tell me that the scantily clad women there don't want to be seen. I don't buy it. I never called them "seductive temptresses," but swimming is hardly the first consideration for beach wear.
[/quote]

I live here. Maybe if you saw the women that frequent our beach you would understand my point of view. Or maybe I misunderstand yours. When I hear that a women is dressing in skimpy attire to be seen, I assume that the woman in question has a slender or athletic figure. I would assume that an average American woman would not wear a skimpy bikini just to attract attention.

[Cherie]

[quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1310320978' post='2265349']
I live here. Maybe if you saw the women that frequent our beach you would understand my point of view. Or maybe I misunderstand yours. When I hear that a women is dressing in skimpy attire to be seen, I assume that the woman in question has a slender or athletic figure. I would assume that an average American woman would not wear a skimpy bikini just to attract attention.
[/quote]

The point for me is, though, even if they're NOT wearing it "to attract attention," I still think it is not considered modest attire and shouldn't be worn. I guess that's my point here - because people can dress in "modest" clothing but have an immodest attitude when wearing it, and that is just as wrong, too. I definitely don't think it's "just about the clothing," I think modesty covers a much wider sphere than that. That being said, however, I do think there are objective standards, no matter what your attitude or intention may be, and I don't think bikinis fall within that standard. Do you?

[MissyP89]

[quote]I would assume that an average American woman would not wear a skimpy bikini just to attract attention.[/quote]

This made me think. If you are the average American, non-churchgoing woman, you probably just go to Penney's or Macy's or whatever and buy a two-piece in a color you like. My best friend is a tomboy, hates her body, yet wears a bikini top with shorts.

As a woman, there's not really a sense of "Oh, if I wear this guys will look at me," when shopping for swimsuits. You might find that attitude with dresses for a wedding or prom, but with the beach, so many people just default to bikinis because they're so prevalent.