Modesty For Men

[arfink]

I have noticed very frequently that young men struggling with purity bemoan the fact that all the women they know wear basically no clothing. Next thing you know someone is chiming in that men don't exactly know a thing about modesty anymore either.

SO I'll be the first to admit I haven't got a clue about fashion in general or what sorts of things prove to be immodest in the eyes of women. About the only offence I have been informed of while at home is that my gut hangs out of my shirt/pantaloons when I'm not wearing a belt. Which only really happens at home. Since nobody anywhere else says a word about modesty. In fact, I know people who don't even know what the word means in relation to dress.

Also, I'm very curious to know how much of a problem you consider this to be. If you are a girl/woman, I'd be curious to know if it is it really a serious occasion of sin, a serious temptation to lust?

Lastly, before anyone says "You're not a hunk," I need to also finish with this: Of the men I have gotten to talk honestly with me about this, when women dress immodestly, even if they are otherwise "unattractive" in the eyes of society, if they are wearing really immodest clothes temptation to lust can STILL arise! Is this true for women?

I highly suspect that women will respond resoundingly that they have the exact same problems as guys concerning modesty, and will provide useful feedback about what sorts of things they wish men would change about the way they dress and why. Let's see if my hypothesis is right.

Edited August 26, 2011 by arfink

[CatherineM]

My biggest modesty issues with men revolve around seeing their cracks.

[cooterhein]

I'm curious too. I'm slightly doubtful about the hypothesis, though. Broadly, yes, I expect to find out something's there. It's the "exact same thing" part that I'm more dubious of. I'm not sure what it is, but I think it's kind of different. That's part of what makes me curious.

[tinytherese]

As far as dressing modestly for men, what bothers me is when a really built guy doesn't wear a shirt or if he wears really tight clothes.

Yes, men will lust after women regardless of what they wear, but don't you think that if women dressed modestly world wide that the problem would lessen? If all or a majority of women respected themselves and demanded men to be gentleman, purity would be more common.

It seems as if modesty of speech is something that men especially struggle with (not that women don't, but from my experience it is more apparent with men.)

Edited August 26, 2011 by tinytherese

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

As I have been told by several men, modesty for men is actually quite opposite of women and has very little to do with clothing. I mean, yes one should always strive to dress appropriately, but generally guys aren't trying to flaunt their bodies and women, I am told, aren't as visual as men. Guys are immodest in another way. Now don't take me out of context but, a guy can be immodest when he spends a large amount of time with a woman he is not friends with. If there is an established relationship or solid friendship one can be supportive yes; however, constantly being emotionally supportive for a woman, talking to her about things that are very close to her heart (especially events that have hurt her), and even praying with her about them can be very immodest if one does not intend to seek a relationship with her. Such events, while they should not be shied away from lest you hurt the other person, should be used as an opportunity to push the other person towards the proper support. The sharing of these events do create a natural bond between people especially if one is consistently an emotional support and help and often shares things about themselves to the other person who has been having trouble. For guys, this can be seen as just being a good friend and helping them through a tough time, but for women, they often see something more. Guys can be immodest emotionally in this way.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam

[cmaD2006]

muscle shirts? i.e. the football shirts that are holey (i.e. lots of holes ... its really see through ish and doesnt leave anything to imagination). As a woman -- if a guy is really built and doesn't wear a shirt or wears a shirt wannabe, then this definitely is a temptation.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' timestamp='1314339489' post='2295121']
As I have been told by several men, modesty for men is actually quite opposite of women and has very little to do with clothing. I mean, yes one should always strive to dress appropriately, but generally guys aren't trying to flaunt their bodies and women, I am told, aren't as visual as men. Guys are immodest in another way. Now don't take me out of context but, a guy can be immodest when he spends a large amount of time with a woman he is not friends with. If there is an established relationship or solid friendship one can be supportive yes; however, constantly being emotionally supportive for a woman, talking to her about things that are very close to her heart (especially events that have hurt her), and even praying with her about them can be very immodest if one does not intend to seek a relationship with her. Such events, while they should not be shied away from lest you hurt the other person, should be used as an opportunity to push the other person towards the proper support. The sharing of these events do create a natural bond between people especially if one is consistently an emotional support and help and often shares things about themselves to the other person who has been having trouble. For guys, this can be seen as just being a good friend and helping them through a tough time, but for women, they often see something more. Guys can be immodest emotionally in this way.
[/quote]

I learned that the hard way as a female. Ladies, take it from me: unless a guy specifically asks you out, don't hope for him to make a move or read into what he does thinking that he's attracted to you. Men are more direct.

[MithLuin]

I think that speech is more of an issue than dress. I mean, okay, yes, a shirtless guy can be an issue (maybe at the beach or something), but most guys don't walk around shirtless in public, so I doubt that's what you were worried about. Tight/revealing items can be a problem. Biker shorts just look silly, so I can't really see someone lusting after that, but maybe for some women.

And [url="http://themurkyfringe.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/codpiece1-578x1024.jpg"]codpieces[/url] are right out. No idea why anyone would have ever considered them appropriate! (and if you don't know what that is, you might not want to google it by image....)

But modesty for men tends to be offended against more frequently by lewd/off-color remarks. Something as simple as 'that's what she said' jokes can really sour a conversation. I think that older gentlemen are much more likely to pay attention to what is said in mixed company, rather than what they would say around just 'the guys'. Perhaps younger men should pay attention to this as well.

I really cannot comment on what would be appropriate for a group of all men, because as soon as I show up, that's no longer the group dynamics . But likely modesty would demand upholding certain standards of conversation, regardless of the audience. A group of men sitting around talking about how hot a woman (or particular body part of said woman) is is demeaning, even if she can't hear them. Believe it or not, women do this as well, and it can be highly inappropriate.

[LaPetiteSoeur]

It's not so much an issue of lust, for me at least. I do think there are things guys should wear and shouldn't.

No wife-beaters (those undershirt things), unless they are used for their proper purpose---UNDERWEAR
Belts. No cracks, etc. No one needs to see someone's nether regions.
Modesty of the heart
Modesty of the mouth
Modesty of the body.

I know women should dress modestly (as in non-tight pantaloons, skirts, shirts that cover the top, etc), but guys need to learn custody of the eyes, too. It goes both ways, I'm sure.

[MithLuin]

Modesty is more than clothing choices. From the Catechism:

"Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet. "

[Lil Red]

[quote name='tinytherese' timestamp='1314336261' post='2295118']As far as dressing modestly for men, what bothers me is when a really built guy doesn't wear a shirt or if he wears really tight clothes.

Yes, men will lust after women regardless of what they wear, but don't you think that if women dressed modestly world wide that the problem would lessen? If all or a majority of women respected themselves and demanded men to be gentleman, purity would be more common.

It seems as if modesty of speech is something that men especially struggle with (not that women don't, but from my experience it is more apparent with men.)[/quote]
so it's the women's fault?

[arfink]

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' timestamp='1314339489' post='2295121']
As I have been told by several men, modesty for men is actually quite opposite of women and has very little to do with clothing. I mean, yes one should always strive to dress appropriately, but generally guys aren't trying to flaunt their bodies and women, I am told, aren't as visual as men. Guys are immodest in another way. Now don't take me out of context but, a guy can be immodest when he spends a large amount of time with a woman he is not friends with. If there is an established relationship or solid friendship one can be supportive yes; however, constantly being emotionally supportive for a woman, talking to her about things that are very close to her heart (especially events that have hurt her), and even praying with her about them can be very immodest if one does not intend to seek a relationship with her. Such events, while they should not be shied away from lest you hurt the other person, should be used as an opportunity to push the other person towards the proper support. The sharing of these events do create a natural bond between people especially if one is consistently an emotional support and help and often shares things about themselves to the other person who has been having trouble. For guys, this can be seen as just being a good friend and helping them through a tough time, but for women, they often see something more. Guys can be immodest emotionally in this way.
[/quote]

This is actually extremely interesting to me. Something that I have not heard mentioned at all before. See, this kind of emotional support thing is absolutely critical for a good, solid friendship in my experience. And with guys who you haven't managed to establish a solid friendship with it can actually be really useful to delve into this stuff as a way to build something and strengthen it. I didn't know it worked the opposite way with women.

"Now don't take me out of context but, a guy can be immodest when he spends a large amount of time with a woman he is not friends with."
This makes me worried that if I get married or get a girlfriend I will never be allowed to make friends again. No, seriously. Can you explain this a little bit more?

[arfink]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1314374893' post='2295195']
so it's the women's fault?
[/quote]

I think if you're wilfully presenting an occasion of sin to people it IS partly your fault when they sin. Just like if I knowingly left a bottle of scotch on the bedstand of an alcoholic guest staying at my house, I would be partly at fault if he went on a binge with the booze I left there. (If I understand the Catechism correctly I would be at fault regardless of whether he did binge or not, assuming I knew he was an alcoholic and did it anyway.)

Please remember that while it is the responsibility of guys to maintain custody of their eyes, many men's wills and consciences are so eroded and malformed that even if they are trying to regain a sense of purity they may find themselves doing things involuntarily based solely on the dress of a woman in their presence. Yes, we don't want to give people license just because they have a genuine addiction and their culpability is lowered, but please consider that there is a very large number of men who have this problem. It's no accident that society is so messed up. Men are practically raised by society to do this stuff, and the battle for custody of the eyes looks alot less like a simple, fully culpable failure to exercise your will and alot more like a heroin addict writhing on the floor in withdrawal, only to have someone walk into the room to offer him a hit just when it starts to get most painful.

EDIT: Don't think for an instant that I am saying men shouldn't be held accountable for this stuff, it has to happen it's the only way it can stop. But you also can't expect me to believe that if you're going to hold men accountable that women should be able to get away with wearing whatever they want. But I'm sure you guys already know this. It just bugs me that people say "So it's the woman's fault?" as if the answer should always be "No," in every case.

Edited August 26, 2011 by arfink

[Lil Red]

I have a problem with the "women need to step it up" mentality. Umm, no. Most teenage girls aren't willfully presenting anything. It's just how they dress (if they aren't raised in a particularly religion home).

[arfink]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1314376029' post='2295207']
I have a problem with the "women need to step it up" mentality. Umm, no. Most teenage girls aren't willfully presenting anything. It's just how they dress (if they aren't raised in a particularly religion home).
[/quote]

Then have a problem with it. I'm also saying "Men need to stop it." Or in general "People need to stop with the whole sex crazed culture. Right now!" You want people to stop abortion too? They don't do it wilfully, desiring the blood of innocents. They think it's just lifeless tissue.

Oh, and the heroin allegory is my way of alluding to the guys who are trying to step it up and fight their addictions. It really is like that in the mind of a man. I would know. I live that life. It's not like I can expect every woman in society to respect that struggle, but is it really so misogynistic of me to wish that they would?

I'm not advocating for some kind of anti-feminist paternalistic gulag here. I'm simply stating, from a guy's point of view, the wish that EVERYBODY would see the truth and abandon the culture of lust. I think it's especially imperative for Catholic men and women who do know better.

Edited August 26, 2011 by arfink

[Lil Red]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1314375686' post='2295206']
Please remember that while it is the responsibility of guys to maintain custody of their eyes, many men's wills and consciences are so eroded and malformed that even if they are trying to regain a sense of purity [b]they may find themselves doing things involuntarily based solely on the dress of a woman in their presence.[/b] [/quote]
sorry, that's b.s.

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1314375686' post='2295206']EDIT: Don't think for an instant that I am saying men shouldn't be held accountable for this stuff, it has to happen it's the only way it can stop. But you also can't expect me to believe that if you're going to hold men accountable that women should be able to get away with wearing whatever they want. But I'm sure you guys already know this. It just bugs me that people say "So it's the woman's fault?" as if the answer should always be "No," in every case.[/quote]
not saying that women/girls don't have a responsibility. i have a problem with statements like tinytherese's that seem to say, "Women need to step it up. This is all women's faults because they've been dressing like that." umm, no.

look, let's be real here. most teenage girls don't know any better - this is how the culture is, this is how it is presented to teenage girls to dress - and especially if parents don't think it's wrong, then why would girls growing up think it is wrong? we're not going to be changing their hearts by walking around going, "Because you dress so slutty, you need to cover up so I (meaning a guy) don't sin."

[Lil Red]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1314376415' post='2295211']Then have a problem with it. I'm also saying "Men need to stop it." Or in general "People need to stop with the whole sex crazed culture. Right now!" You want people to stop abortion too? They don't do it wilfully, desiring the blood of innocents. They think it's just lifeless tissue.[/quote]
umm, what? this makes no sense.

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1314376415' post='2295211']I'm not advocating for some kind of anti-feminist paternalistic gulag here. I'm simply stating, from a guy's point of view, the wish that EVERYBODY would see the truth and abandon the culture of lust. I think it's especially imperative for Catholic men and women who do know better.[/quote]
okay? i'm not arguing against that?

[arfink]

So I don't understand your position. I understand your concern about my use of the word "involuntary" as that generally has a stronger meaning than what I'm referring to, though a couple psychologist I know would use it in that way. What other word do you use for "Actions I do without the full consent of my will/reason?"

I wonder if you just find my choice of words poor or if you just won't believe that addiction to sex/lust is a real addiction, one that comes with both a psychological and chemical level of addiction. (in the case of people who also struggle with masturbation, which I am guessing is most/all of guys who have addiction to lustful thoughts) Sure, this can be overcome, and it's not a license to sin, as I have said. But it's real, and I have it on the authority of multiple confessors and a couple spiritual directors that it does reduce culpability. Which means the acts, in a certain sense, could be considered involuntary. Unless you have another word that's better. I understand it's not the best word choice.

[Lisa]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1314375089' post='2295200']

This is actually extremely interesting to me. Something that I have not heard mentioned at all before. See, this kind of emotional support thing is absolutely critical for a good, solid friendship in my experience. And with guys who you haven't managed to establish a solid friendship with it can actually be really useful to delve into this stuff as a way to build something and strengthen it. I didn't know it worked the opposite way with women.

"Now don't take me out of context but, a guy can be immodest when he spends a large amount of time with a woman he is not friends with."
This makes me worried that if I get married or get a girlfriend I will never be allowed to make friends again. No, seriously. Can you explain this a little bit more?
[/quote]

AMDG will probably come back and answer this better, but I'd like share a few experiences as a woman. The perspective of women is different than men (as clearly you understand), and for many women, having a guy tell you he will "be there for you no matter what" and all of of a sudden spending more time with you might make many women think that there is something more there. We long to give our hearts fully to someone, it's how we're made.

For men, lust seems to be centered around objectifying women's bodies with the thought of physical pleasure in mind. For women, though, lust can be emotional. The "I want" mentality- wanting to use men for emotional comfort or a physical connection- is still putting personal pleasure about the good of another person. Lust is a terrible twisting of love. As men and women, we crave love in different way; therefore, lust happens a little differently too. Also, women connect physical intimacy with emotional closeness, so sometime women begin to think "what if" about even the most heartfelt friendships. "What would it be like to kiss him," etc.

So, whether you have a girlfriend/wife or not, relationships with women should be a little guarded. This isn't to say that men and women can't/should not be friends, but rather, it's essential to set those boundaries of time and place to avoid the occasion to sin by either person.

[arfink]

That's a good explanation. Thank you.