Pope Seeks End To Death Penalty

[Jaime]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1324319644' post='2353772'] ! I wouldn't place those dissident liturgisst advocating liturgical dance and other liturgical abuse on the same level as all the Popes, saints, and Doctors of the Church who have advocated capital punishment, but that's just my ignorant lay opinion. [/quote]

I'm sorry I was too busy watching this video of the psalm at WYD in Toronto. Blessed Pope John Paul II was celebrating. What was your opinion again?

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyoFyFZQ5Ec[/media]



Oh that's right something about popes or saints not publicly supporting liturgical dance. I'm going to have to look into that

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1324344095' post='2354028']
I'm sorry I was too busy watching this video of the psalm at WYD in Toronto. Blessed Pope John Paul II was celebrating. What was your opinion again?

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyoFyFZQ5Ec[/media]



Oh that's right something about popes or saints not publicly supporting liturgical dance. I'm going to have to look into that
[/quote]
WYD Toronto was not setup by the Pope, nor were the ceremonial elements reviewed and sanctioned by the Pope. Bad example.

Kind of nostalgic though. I'm trying to find myself in that video (fat chance).

Edited December 20, 2011 by Laudate_Dominum

[Jaime]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1324345258' post='2354059']
WYD Toronto was not setup by the Pope, nor were the ceremonial elements reviewed and sanctioned by the Pope. Bad example.

Kind of nostalgic though. I'm trying to find myself in that video (fat chance).
[/quote]
If Blessed Pope John Paul II did not support the abuses, he would have fired Marini. To say he never reviewed or sanctioned the actions at the masses is disingenuous. Marini did them on a regular basis.
[quote]
[b] Liturgical Abuses Encouraged by John Paul II says Former Master of Ceremonies[/b]


He Encouraged it Himself

The beatified John Paul II could be named as the patron Saint of liturgical abuses.

(kreuz.net, Vatikan) The beatified John Paul II († 2005) had [i]expressly[/i] desired the abuses which were celebrated before him in Pontifical Offices.

This is what the organizer of the abuses and many years Master of Ceremonies, Archbishop Piero Marini (69) wrote in his new book, "IO sono un Papa amabile. Gioanni Paolo II" -- "I am a loveable Pope. John Paul II."

Paolo Rodari reported this on May 7. on his [often excellent] website '[url="http://www.paolorodari.com/2011/05/07/wojtyla-sacro-show-cosi-lex-maestro-delle-cerimonie-marini-piero-svela-che-era-il-papa-polacco-a-volere-tutte-quelle-novita/"]Palazzo Apostolico[/url]'


[/quote]

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1324346350' post='2354086']
If Blessed Pope John Paul II did not support the abuses, he would have fired Marini. To say he never reviewed or sanctioned the actions at the masses is disingenuous. Marini did them on a regular basis.
[/quote]
I didn't say [i]never[/i], I said at WYD Toronto. My understanding is that when B16 visited DC and NY the level of involvement in planning the liturgies was unprecedented. Also, I remember the controversy caused by that WYD '02 liturgical dance and I remember it being said that JP2's role was basically that of a guest, not an organizer. I don't claim to know that JP2 NEVER sanctioned liturgical dance. It wouldn't necessarily surprise me, but I consider your specific example to be weak. I think a better example of JP2's sensibilities might be typical papal Masses in Rome. The big events like WYD are complicated.

Here's Marini prime supporting your view, fwiw.

[url="http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/05/marini-not-guido-says-john-paul-ii-wanted-all-the-liturgical-nonsense/"]http://wdtprs.com/bl...gical-nonsense/[/url]

Stooged:

[img]http://wdtprs.com/images/08_09_05_vestment01.jpg[/img]

Edited December 20, 2011 by Laudate_Dominum

[Jaime]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1324346649' post='2354091']
I didn't say [i]never[/i], I said at WYD 2002. When B16 visited DC and NY the level of involvement was unprecedented. Also, I remember the controversy caused by that WYD '02 liturgical dance and I remember it being said that JP2's role was basically that of a guest, not an organizer. I don't claim to know that JP2 NEVER sanctioned liturgical dance. It wouldn't necessarily surprise me, but I consider your specific example to be weak.

Here's Marini prime supporting your view, fwiw.

[url="http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/05/marini-not-guido-says-john-paul-ii-wanted-all-the-liturgical-nonsense/"]http://wdtprs.com/bl...gical-nonsense/[/url]
[/quote]

Yeah well I consider your chili recipe to be weak! SO THERE!!! (actually I have no personal experience with your cooking. I'm sure you make an excellent chili. Sometimes I'm bad with retorts)

Whether or not there were disclaimers mentioned at the WYD mass (and I'm so jealous you were there), my point still stands. There are popes who have supported things that many folks would not. You can support the death penalty, liturgical dance, praying with hands in the Orans position, etc. and still be considered a Catholic in good standing.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1324347279' post='2354099']
Yeah well I consider your chili recipe to be weak! SO THERE!!! (actually I have no personal experience with your cooking. I'm sure you make an excellent chili. Sometimes I'm bad with retorts)

Whether or not there were disclaimers mentioned at the WYD mass (and I'm so jealous you were there), my point still stands. There are popes who have supported things that many folks would not. You can support the death penalty, liturgical dance, praying with hands in the Orans position, etc. and still be considered a Catholic in good standing.
[/quote]
Fair enough. I just wanted to make my one dopey point. If I may add a frivolous comment, I like that the vid title has the word Laudate in it. Fun, fun, fun, fun - as RB would say.

Peace.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1324347947' post='2354113']
Fair enough. I just wanted to make my one dopey point. If I may add a frivolous comment, I like that the vid title has the word Laudate in it. Fun, fun, fun, fun - as RB would say.

Peace.
[/quote]

while you may have a rare dopey point (and this probably wasn't one) I think you are one of the smartest people posting here.


Even if we disagree on stuff sometimes

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1324348356' post='2354121']
while you may have a rare dopey point (and this probably wasn't one) I think you are one of the smartest people posting here.


Even if we disagree on stuff sometimes
[/quote]
You flatter me. Thanks bro. I do strive to be razzle dazzle on the internet to compensate for my real life. And disagreement is fun sometimes. Thanks for doing it.



P.S. Friends furever.

[img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/phatmass/1301975219450.jpg[/img]

Edited December 20, 2011 by Laudate_Dominum

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1324346350' post='2354086']
If Blessed Pope John Paul II did not support the abuses, he would have fired Marini. To say he never reviewed or sanctioned the actions at the masses is disingenuous. Marini did them on a regular basis.
[/quote]

Too bad Marini mk. I didn't push the envelope a bit more. An early firing would have done everyone good.

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1324349840' post='2354138']
You flatter me. Thanks bro. I do strive to be razzle dazzle on the internet to compensate for my real life. And disagreement is fun sometimes. Thanks for doing it.



P.S. Friends furever.

[img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/phatmass/1301975219450.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

I'm not sure what to say about this.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1324354299' post='2354176']
I'm not sure what to say about this.
[/quote]
that's what she said

[Laudate_Dominum]

[url="http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/dating-fails-dating-fails-im-glad-she-at-least-got-a-book-deal-out-of-it.jpg"]http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/dating-fails-dating-fails-im-glad-she-at-least-got-a-book-deal-out-of-it.jpg[/url]

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1324319243' post='2353767']
If the death penalty is inherently evil and unjust, why did God [i]explicitly command[/i] the death penalty for a variety of crimes? This is recorded many times in Genesis, Exodus, and Leviticus. God, who is All Good and All Just, never commands evil.

"He that strikes a man with a will to kill him shall be put to death." ~ Exodus 21:12


[/quote]
That's pretty dark stuff Socrates. Selling your daughter as a slave! Stoning an Ox that gored someone???
As I conceded to Nihil there is a lot of God killing in the OT, so maybe it is right. I hope not for our sake. But it's quite different to the God of the NT. If sin makes you lame this God wants to put your arm over his shoulder and carry you. Fr Barron likes God killings too. He reckons tsunamis, bushfires and hurricanes are the Holy Spirit chastising. In the southern Philippines this week because of greedy rich removing trees, heavy rains caused landslides and a sudden torrent. Whose bodies were in the trucks. Women and children of poor Catholics that's who.
[i][url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=2&ch=21&l=22#x"][22][/url] If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child, and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman's husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=2&ch=21&l=23#x"][23][/url] But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life. [/i]
Apparently children don't mean very much, God doesn't require the death penalty for killing the unborn. So it's Okay to abort children as long as you pay some compensation to anyone losing out.
And to be Catholic we have to accept that if God gets Pzzd with you and kills you, then you will probably be sent to hell for some writhing in agony in flames, then after a billion years God will laugh at you and say you haven't even begun yet that's why I killed you for an early start. Really! If I were God I would be deeply cut at my people having this view of me.
Peace be with you and merry Christmas Socrates


[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1324348356' post='2354121']
I think you are one of the smartest people posting here.


[/quote]
L_D is razzle dazzle razzle dazzle amesome amesome. (some tinkering with the filta for a double post within a post)



[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1324354299' post='2354176']


I'm not sure what to say about this.
[/quote]
No ponytails?

Edited December 20, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[Papist]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1324346350' post='2354086']
If Blessed Pope John Paul II did not support the abuses, he would have fired Marini. To say he never reviewed or sanctioned the actions at the masses is disingenuous. Marini did them on a regular basis.
[/quote]

Have you looked into all the 266 Popes and their support of abuses. Or are you just interested in Pope #265?

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1324345258' post='2354059']
WYD Toronto was not setup by the Pope, nor were the ceremonial elements reviewed and sanctioned by the Pope. Bad example.

Kind of nostalgic though. I'm trying to find myself in that video (fat chance).
[/quote]

The one at the beginning looks a lot like Freema Agyeman (Martha Jones in Doctor Who series 3).

[Jaime]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1324404847' post='2354499']
Have you looked into all the 266 Popes and their support of abuses. Or are you just interested in Pope #265?
[/quote]

I just need one to make my point.