Pope Seeks End To Death Penalty

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1326666521' post='2369666']
Appears you missed the dripping sarcasm in my post.
[/quote]

I thought it could be sarcasm, but sarcasm or not, the fact that some loony in the judicial system may let a dangerous person out of prison is a point that I feel needs to be considered in this whole debate as well.

[Anomaly]

Sometimes it's comforting to see debate technics don't change.

Or not comforting.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1326682608' post='2369845']
I thought it could be sarcasm, but sarcasm or not, the fact that some loony in the judicial system may let a dangerous person out of prison is a point that I feel needs to be considered in this whole debate as well.
[/quote]
True, but also innocent people get executed. If they're in jail you can let them out and compensate them.

[Anomaly]

Humans are not perfect or infallible. Ever. There is no perfect way to deal with punishment or public protection.
It's fundamentally silly to attempt to justify eliminating the death penalty on solely moral grounds. The morality of the death penalty is too established in religious history. Attempts to classify all executions based on "morality" ultimately serves to destroy historical credulity of religions, making Christian religion even less of an influence on current society.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1326758150' post='2370190']
Humans are not perfect or infallible. Ever. There is no perfect way to deal with punishment or public protection.
It's fundamentally silly to attempt to justify eliminating the death penalty on solely moral grounds. The morality of the death penalty is too established in religious history. Attempts to classify all executions based on "morality" ultimately serves to destroy historical credulity of religions, making Christian religion even less of an influence on current society.
[/quote]
A half-hearted woot.

P.S. Meaning, I hear what you're saying and don't entirely disagree.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Laudate_Dominum

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1326758150' post='2370190']
Humans are not perfect or infallible. Ever. There is no perfect way to deal with punishment or public protection.
It's fundamentally silly to attempt to justify eliminating the death penalty on solely moral grounds. The morality of the death penalty is too established in religious history. Attempts to classify all executions based on "morality" ultimately serves to destroy historical credulity of religions, making Christian religion even less of an influence on current society.
[/quote]
Due to human imperfection the historical credulity of religions is already destroyed. Ask any atheist. It doesn't seem to be important how what we do refelects on our religion. For example if a known theif is seen loitering near a jewerly shop, does it diminish their repuation?

[Anomaly]

Mark- Even atheists can ascribe to a moral order. They just don't choose to believe in Santa-god-fairy-bunny. Mormons can recognize and agree with similar values of Hindus. It's simply recognizing what you may agree with another person/religion/philosophy.
If I see a shady character hanging out by a jewelry store, that will require notice and maybe caution. But if I see a jewelry store that is unkempt, heavily barricaded, and in a seedy neighborhood, I would be unwise to not be skeptical of the product and services they provide. A religion may not have much control over vocal laity, but like a store, they are expected to have quality control over the managers/bishops.

If jewelry stores suddenly started valuing diamonds on size and color only, dismissing clarity despite decades of advertisement touting clarity, I would be stupid to blindly accept that even if I had previously been a loyal customer.

The discussion here is really about a recognizing a change as either a tertiary point or a fundamental principle.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA38vt9W3kQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA38vt9W3kQ[/url]

[Laudate_Dominum]

"Sorry, we have to postpone your execution. The drug that we want to kill you with is expired and the FDA won't let us kill you with it because it might not be safe."

[Anomaly]

What point do you want to make w/ the vid, LD? I doubt anyone else will bother to watch it, much less skim it like I did.

I'd point out that they clearly demonstrated bleeding hearts have stymied swift and[u] imperfect [/u]execution. The DP process is certainly not the just, clean, humane system people would hope. Neither is imprisonment the respectful, humane, just system where it can be shown clearly better than DP.

Reality is that fairies or sparkles or bishops or preachers don't enable societies to make everything "all right". Even if they have an over-inflated esteem of their message.

I don't think the Churches should be calling for an abolishment of the DP, but to improve the system to make it swifter and more public as a deterent. Incarceration needs to be constantly adjusted to not coddle, nor to brutalize. Again, neither will be perfect or 'fair' and it's b-s to try to make people believe either is so much better or so much worse thean the other.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1327035483' post='2371871']
What point do you want to make w/ the vid, LD? I doubt anyone else will bother to watch it, much less skim it like I did.[/quote]
I'm not trying to make a point with a 1.2 hour video, just sharing it as interesting. I thought it was interesting anyway. I don't care to debate the topic because I don't know very much about it. If you're curious as to my general (and I do mean very general) opinion I think that rehabilitation and containment are the way to go and that retribution and deterrence are questionable principles. I think it is hard to justify capital punishment when these latter principles are removed.
ETA: But again, I don't claim expertise and these are tentative opinions which I'm not motivated to debate at this time.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Laudate_Dominum

[Anomaly]

I hear you brother. It is all amateur opinion, no matter how sincerely we hold our opinion. It's kinda the point of forums to explore, challenge, and really honestly consider and think about your opinion and adjust it accordingly. I used to be 100% against the DP but was convinced otherwise.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1327037226' post='2371886']
I hear you brother. It is all amateur opinion, no matter how sincerely we hold our opinion. It's kinda the point of forums to explore, challenge, and really honestly consider and think about your opinion and adjust it accordingly. I used to be 100% against the DP but was convinced otherwise.
[/quote]
Amen bro. What were the main things that changed your mind on the death penalty? Just curious.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1327039236' post='2371900']
Amen bro. What were the main things that changed your mind on the death penalty? Just curious.
[/quote]I've been in State and Federal Prisons (not to be confused with city or county jails) (doing work, not as an inmate)
I also have come to know well former inmates (and/or their families) that were long time employees.

Based on my experiences/second hand knowledge, I've come to realise how brutal jail life is for inmates. The brutality originates from the system, system abuse (guards, wardens, policies), over crowding, and other inmates. Incarceration does protect society out side to a degree, put brutalized lessor offendors come out unrehabilitated and more dangerous and damaging to society then going in. The protection to society is only temporary.

There is no perfect system or perfect justice. Some people have earned removal from society (both prison society and free society). Lessor offenders deserve the opportunity to serve their punishment and return to free society to be a contributing citizen. Subjecting them to violent brutality that destroys their mental health is not fair to them or free society. My "opinion" is society is limited in their ability to be fair to accused or convicted, but good intentions have sacrificed the welfare of the greater population for the welfare of the convicted.

In the bigger scope of things, there are individuals who are and will be unjustly convicted and executed. But in my opinion, the greater harm is to free society when the justice scale is tipped to their advantage and lessor offendors are damaged by the resulting environment and returned to society unrehabilitated and practically unable to do anything other than cause more harm to general society.

Again, it's my [u]opinion[/u], colored by my experiences, what I've read, and my personal pragmatic philosophy.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Anomaly

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1327081228' post='2372055']

Again, it's my [u]opinion[/u], colored by my experiences, what I've read, and my personal pragmatic philosophy.
[/quote]

you ain't bad

[Dennis Tate]

Do you believe that Mr. Jeffrey Dahmer may well be rejoicing in heaven at this moment?

I am wide open to that possibility because Mr. Dahmer did repent and give his life to God while he was in prison.

If God has been able to save serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer then a powerful case can be presented that it is worthwhile to allow even the most notorious of murderers to live out a full life span behind bars so that they can present no more danger to society...but they have their full life span to come to genuine repentance and understanding of God's plan even for them.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Dennis Tate

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Dennis Tate' timestamp='1327589102' post='2375691']
Do you believe that Mr. Jeffrey Dahmer may well be rejoicing in heaven at this moment?

I am wide open to that possibility because Mr. Dahmer did repent and give his life to God while he was in prison.

If God has been able to save serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer then a powerful case can be presented that it is worthwhile to allow even the most notorious of murderers to live out a full life span behind bars so that they can present no more danger to society...but they have their full life span to come to genuine repentance and understanding of God's plan even for them.
[/quote]The debatable point is truely evaluating the danger/harm to society. Warehousing convicted murderes and violent offenders and assuming they cannot harm or cause a danger to society is not a given. High-max prisons are fundamentally brutal to the inmates and arguably inhumane as well as the isolation and conditions excacerbate and cause mental psychosis. High-max prisons are not limited to just life sentenced inmates, so they are spewing unstable ex-cons back to society that are even less likely to turn their life around, causing further harm to society.

Not everyone can expect the same life-span. Where's the justice in affording a murderer the maximum life span to repent, when the person they murdered had their life cut short? Also, the conditions of a high security prison are so damaging to the mental health, additional years are not likely to be effectively conductive to repentance. Certain people are so evil, they are a blight to society, whether in prison or not. Only a sure final date of execution can attempt to balance the circumstances of their environment and harm to society.

Wouldn't every body choose to live their life differently if they knew they had only 1 year to live and make their peace with God if they believed in God? The adage that their's no atheists in foxholes comes to mind.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1327592994' post='2375707']
The debatable point is truely evaluating the danger/harm to society. Warehousing convicted murderes and violent offenders and assuming they cannot harm or cause a danger to society is not a given. High-max prisons are fundamentally brutal to the inmates and arguably inhumane as well as the isolation and conditions excacerbate and cause mental psychosis. High-max prisons are not limited to just life sentenced inmates, so they are spewing unstable ex-cons back to society that are even less likely to turn their life around, causing further harm to society.

Not everyone can expect the same life-span. Where's the justice in affording a murderer the maximum life span to repent, when the person they murdered had their life cut short? Also, the conditions of a high security prison are so damaging to the mental health, additional years are not likely to be effectively conductive to repentance. Certain people are so evil, they are a blight to society, whether in prison or not. Only a sure final date of execution can attempt to balance the circumstances of their environment and harm to society.

Wouldn't every body choose to live their life differently if they knew they had only 1 year to live and make their peace with God if they believed in God? The adage that their's no atheists in foxholes comes to mind.
[/quote]
I like the theory of that, it sounds reasonable! But I'd like your opinion on some things that that seems to imply. What's your opinion on mental institutions/aged invalid homes/orphanages? These places can bring about the same results as prison. And also the homes of children of drug damaged parents who don't want them. Doesn't those reasons for endorsment of the death penalty also endorse to some extent euthenasia and abortion? Life's not a fun place for most people. As a theist I see a purpose in that, although I don't know what that purpose is. But in your view of CP as a solution to prevent the manufacturing of mentally ill people. Is suicide a solution to prevent the further deterioration of those tending to psychosis?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1327642252' post='2376068']
I like the theory of that, it sounds reasonable! But I'd like your opinion on some things that that seems to imply. What's your opinion on mental institutions/aged invalid homes/orphanages? These places can bring about the same results as prison. And also the homes of children of drug damaged parents who don't want them. Doesn't those reasons for endorsment of the death penalty also endorse to some extent euthenasia and abortion? Life's not a fun place for most people. As a theist I see a purpose in that, although I don't know what that purpose is. But in your view of CP as a solution to prevent the manufacturing of mentally ill people. Is suicide a solution to prevent the further deterioration of those tending to psychosis?
[/quote]The reason a person is in prison is greatly different than those in a mental institution. Namely being, convicted murderers are there because they chose to murder (or other violent crime) with enough mental capacity to be considered to doing so with free will and deserving 'punishment'. Incarceration in prisons is not just about protecting society or housing people that cannot take care of themselves.
The point I make is that life imprisonment is not greatly more humane, nor is it more beneficial to society. Life imprisonment wrongly elevates the value of the life of the murderer above that of the victim. Actions chosen have consequences. Society must administer the consequences as justly as possible. No matter what, human justice is imperfect. We do the best we can, with the best intentions for victims and perpatrators, with the goal of having an ordered and free society. If there is a god, Christians can let god sort it out afterwards.
It is my understanding, that was the Christian philosophy for centuries. I don't understand why the Catholics have now changed their priorities of their principles making the lives of murderers so valuable that they escape fair consequence, even to the extent of causing further harm to the order and freedom of behaving society.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1327671058' post='2376113']
The reason a person is in prison is greatly different than those in a mental institution. Namely being, convicted murderers are there because they chose to murder (or other violent crime) with enough mental capacity to be considered to doing so with free will and deserving 'punishment'. Incarceration in prisons is not just about protecting society or housing people that cannot take care of themselves.
The point I make is that life imprisonment is not greatly more humane, nor is it more beneficial to society. Life imprisonment wrongly elevates the value of the life of the murderer above that of the victim. Actions chosen have consequences. Society must administer the consequences as justly as possible. No matter what, human justice is imperfect. We do the best we can, with the best intentions for victims and perpatrators, with the goal of having an ordered and free society. If there is a god, Christians can let god sort it out afterwards.
It is my understanding, that was the Christian philosophy for centuries. I don't understand why the Catholics have now changed their priorities of their principles making the lives of murderers so valuable that they escape fair consequence, even to the extent of causing further harm to the order and freedom of behaving society.
[/quote]

Apparently I have a different picture portrait of God than many others. I see God along the lines of the prodigal son allegory, not a punishing or revengeful God. Revenge is seated in hatred and punishing in impatience and lack of objective. This is not God, this is darkness. God is truly all powerful, but that needs to be understood in that there are certain things he cannot do, which I will explain. God created humans for the objective of sharing eternal life with him in his kingdom. It is written that nothing impure may enter into Gods Kingdom. Jesus sacrifice annulled our sins, but God is pure love and for us to enter his kingdom we must have pure love for him. Love to be pure cannot be forced or bargained for. It has to be given freely by choice. Therefore in order for us to have the possibility of pure love for God he had to relinquish his power by giving us free will. We must freely choose to love him or not. To love him we must try to emulate him and obey his will. Our attitude to society, in particular in the case of justice, our objective should not be one of revenge or punishment. But should be rehabilitation and more importantly protection of society. You paint a bleak picture of the US penal system, which undoubtedly is true. Here in Australia we have the reverse problem, our judicial system is far too lenient and is failing in that regard. Theists generally believe that God allows lethal force where there is no alternative to neutralise a threat to society. So the solution you propose is possibly the only practical solution in the case of an overloaded and unfunded system where efficacy of the objective is doubtful. But that does not make it the desirable one! A murderer in cutting short the life of the victim may have deprived the victim of their chances at life, but two wrongs does not equate a right. You can't kill the monster without becoming the monster so to speak. To emulate Gods love we must still forgive the murderer that wrong and rather consider the salvage of that person as secondary to protection of society. The victim we must entrust to Gods mercy and fair compensation. I believe that God would have given the victim every opportunity. So the situation of the victim being lost because of the life being cut short but otherwise having being saved is an improbable situation. IMHO. God would not permit this to happen. Either the victim was already saved or there was no possibility of salvation. I'm not so much being fatalistic here, just that God has more input in events than most people are aware of.