Trayvon Martin

[Guest]

And how is it not racial profiling ? He said he looked suspicous and hes black. It was raining and he had a hood on. Walking HOME from the seven eleven. Trayvon even ran away at one point. Yet this scum still followed him after being told not to.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Guest

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1332583015' post='2406971']
nm I'm not going to waste my time or energy on you.
[/quote]

You're not going to waste your time or energy on me? I find it interesting that you cite race and then pretend to be the bigger man.

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1332583992' post='2406972']
There's plenty of evidence this half white half mexican scum followed Trayvon for no reason. He told the cops it looks like he's up to no good and on drugs. The cops told him not to follow him. He did not listen. Trayvon weighed 140 pounds. This fat scum weighed 240 pounds. I cannot stand cops who are on power trips. I cannot stand even more wanna be cops who are on a power trip. It blows my mind that some people think this scum deserves to be walking around free. What if it was your kid ? This guy will get what he deserves though. Hopefully he repents before he gets what's coming to him.
[/quote]

If it was my child he wouldn't be walking around late at night in his father's neighborhood for which he isn't familiar. As for "plenty of evidence", you have yet to name a single shred of evidence so at this point it appears that you're just making this into an issue of race. And as for "the cops told him not to follow him", it was 9-11 dispatch and those are considered recommendations according to the law.

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1332584660' post='2406974']
And the biggest thing you keep forgetting is that this is a 17 year old KID. We are not talking about an adult here. This kid was walking home and bothering no one.
[/quote]

It was a 17 year old but lets not forget that there are plenty of 17 year olds serving life sentences for murder. They are just as capable of committing a crime as anyone else. That's why many of them are tried as adults because some of them have the ability to commit the most horrific crimes. I'm not saying that is what Trayvon was doing but your comment suggests that all 17 year olds are good little children that are not know to commit any crimes and that is not the case.

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1332586021' post='2406975']
In the 911 call he says "These a******* always get away."
[/quote]

So what? That is not a racist comment...

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1332586691' post='2406976']
And how is it not racial profiling ? He said he looked suspicous and hes black. It was raining and he had a hood on. Walking HOME from the seven eleven. Trayvon even ran away at one point. Yet this scum still followed him after being told not to.
[/quote]

He described his physical charectoristics. If you were to call 9-11, you'd have to give a physical description, if you said "white" rather then "caucasian" does that make you a racist? In this thread alone you've used such language, does that make you racist against whites by giving a physical description using lingo that is most common in your own society? And as for weather Trayvon ran away and all the details of what happened that night, you weren't there so how do you know what happened? That's right the news media told you, how reliable. They never get these things wrong right? How about when they accused the Duke Lacross players of raping a black girl because she was black and they were white, then it turned out to be a false accusation.

As of yet, you have not given one ounce of evidence for racism but don't feel like a complete failure... you did your best like Jesse Jackson did his best with painting the Duke Lacross team as racist white guys.

Edited March 24, 2012 by RezaMikhaeil

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1332583992' post='2406972']
There's plenty of evidence this half white half mexican scum followed Trayvon for no reason. He told the cops it looks like he's up to no good and on drugs. The cops told him not to follow him. He did not listen. Trayvon weighed 140 pounds. This fat scum weighed 240 pounds. I cannot stand cops who are on power trips. I cannot stand even more wanna be cops who are on a power trip. It blows my mind that some people think this scum deserves to be walking around free. What if it was your kid ? This guy will get what he deserves though. Hopefully he repents before he gets what's coming to him.
[/quote]Good to see that christiian philosopyty is working for you, parasprite.

Since it was a racially diverse neighborhood, you have evidence Zimmerman was following all the black dudes, or just the dudes he didn't recognize?

Any evidence on the race of the strangers he called in about?

I'm glad I'm not a christian so I can be a self righteous hater with a clear conscience. It's a nasty world with nasty people and nasty things happen. I don't believe in some mythical God who is going to wreak justice through me. I just choose to not add to the nastiness in the world, the same as most heathens who aren't grabbing the nooses, baseball bats, and boots to "take care of some God hat'in heathen" that's earned a bit of "divine justice".

There was a horrible tragedy. Even if Trayvon was breaking into cars, stealing mail, or grabbed a jewelry box out a window, he didn't deserve to be shot for that. I wasn't there during the confrontation. I don't know that Zimmerman followed every black kid in the neighborhood. I don't know who pushed who first. I don't know if Zimmerman really believed the stranger he confronted (Trayvon) had a knife or gun.

I do believe most people aren't christian and have judged Zimmerman and Trayvon with divinely inspired assurance. I think most people will question the circumstances. I have confidence in people's intelligence and general integrity. It seemed clear the Sanford police wasn't doing their job. There was well deserved public outcry. FDLE, FBI, and a special prosecutor has been brought in to invesitigate the matter. The God fairy hasn't told me, or most other people that those people are all racist heathens and I need to pray Zimmerman gets what God wants him to deserve.

There is a difference between public outcry, and public outrage.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Anomaly

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1332563786' post='2406932']
So a kid with skittles and a snapples gets followed and shot to death by some neighborhood watch guy who has called 911 about 50 times . And the cops don't administer a alcohol or drug test. They just take him on his word that he was defending himself. What more facts do you need to know ? I laugh out loud when people say racism doesn't exist in 2012. This is pure evidence right in your face. This scum killed a child who he followed. He is a coward and deserves to be sitting in jail. Then he deserves to be put to death just like he would be if Travon was white.
[/quote]
*The shooter didn't know the person had skittles and a snapple.
*The shooter didn't know how old the person was.
*The shooter didn't know the person didn't have a gun.
*The shooter did know there had been a rash of burglaries, and there was someone walking around his neighborhood.
*Someone pointed out the shooter had blood on him which is evidence of a fight.

The shooter was hispanic and the victim was black, those are actually facts. You are assuming that this was racially motivated, because racism exists, but you have no proof in this case.
Calling the cops is what you are supposed to do. I also understand the urge to go out and see whats going on.I do understand the feeling of insecurity and fear that crime brings. I have called the cops MORE than 50 times, I had 11 shooting affairs related to my next door neighbors. I also understand the feelings being robbed brings. We don't usually patrol our streets here, we many of us have cameras that record everything 24/7.
The law in Florida needs to amended to be more specific, but if I were watching someone I suspected was committing a crime turned on me and started toward me, I would probably shoot too, which is why I DON"T own a gun.

[Adrestia]

There's nothing wrong with being angry or upset over perceived injustice. I agree with Delivery Boy to an extent, but I would never post my feelings about it on this board. The facts of the case make me angry enough - reading y'all's responses to Delivery Boy just make it worse.

[r2Dtoo]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1332598167' post='2406998'] *The shooter didn't know the person didn't have a gun.[/quote]
The shooter wouldn't know if [i]anyone[/i] he sees walking down the street is carrying a gun considering FL allows for concealed carry. Does that mean he has the right to shoot everyone he sees walking down the street because they [i]might[/i] have a gun.

[quote]*The shooter did know there had been a rash of burglaries, and there was someone walking around his neighborhood.[/quote]
Um, so?

[quote]*Someone pointed out the shooter had blood on him which is evidence of a fight[/quote]
No not really. If I shoot someone at close range I might get some blood splatter on me too.

[quote]The shooter was hispanic and the victim was black, those are actually facts. You are assuming that this was racially motivated, because racism exists, but you have no proof in this case.[/quote]
What does skin color have to do with this? What makes you think Hispanics can't stereotype? We will never know if that's what he was doing, however.

[quote]I also understand the urge to go out and see whats going on.[/quote]
I absolutely do not. If you go out looking for trouble, don't be surprised when it finds you. Stay inside, lock your doors, and defend your property if someone really scares you that much for some reason.

[Groo the Wanderer]

how about we all rachet it all down a little and wait for the facts. As a racial mutt myself, I am weary of the race card being played for everything.

As for myself, I see it as a tragedy that a teen is dead. I do not know if he was up to no good, I do not know if the guy that shot him was whacked. I do not know enough facts to judge anything.

I do know it is always suspect when Al Sharpton shows up (as he does whenever there is a camera). I do know it will be turned into a political circus since Obama decided to weigh in (also without the facts).

Let's all take chill-pills for now.

[r2Dtoo]

Groo, I understand where you are coming from, but this is just what people do: judge the situation based on the facts presented. If there are more facts presented that contradict what we know now, I'll change my mind. Short from that, you can't change human nature.

[kujo]

What if Trayvon had a cri[color=#000000]minal record? Would we be having this conversation?[/color]

Edited March 24, 2012 by kujo

[Lil Red]

moving to debate table.

[r2Dtoo]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1332601338' post='2407024']
What if Trayvon had a cri[color=#000000]minal record? Would we be having this conversation?[/color]
[/quote]
A good question. I would still object to Zimmerman's actions even if he did, but who knows how society would view.

What Zimmerman did shows irresponsibility on the part of a gun owner. I don't like it because it smells of racial profiling, and I don't like it because this type of perspective of this issue threatens my second amendment rights.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1332598167' post='2406998']Someone pointed out the shooter had blood on him which is evidence of a fight.[/quote] I didn't know this but I do know that the initial report that I'd read about it said that when the police arrived, Zimmerman was soaking wet from head to toe and had glass on his back. Indicating some sort of struggle.

[quote]The shooter was hispanic and the victim was black, those are actually facts. You are assuming that this was racially motivated, because racism exists, but you have no proof in this case.[/quote] Amen

[quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1332599607' post='2407004']
There's nothing wrong with being angry or upset over perceived injustice. I agree with Delivery Boy to an extent, but I would never post my feelings about it on this board. The facts of the case make me angry enough - reading y'all's responses to Delivery Boy just make it worse. [/quote] What responses? One's that demand evidence before we jump to conclusions about Zimmerman's intentions and/or motivations with regards to race? How is that worse...

[quote name='r2Dtoo' timestamp='1332599951' post='2407006']
The shooter wouldn't know if [i]anyone[/i] he sees walking down the street is carrying a gun considering FL allows for concealed carry. Does that mean he has the right to shoot everyone he sees walking down the street because they [i]might[/i] have a gun.[/quote] This is why the law itself is flawed. Zimmerman is not the only individual to have been protected by this law as such. We're only talking about it because certain individuals have turned it into a conversation about race, when it has little to nothing to do with race.

[quote]No not really. If I shoot someone at close range I might get some blood splatter on me too.[/quote] Unfortunately you, nor the mainstream media has reported on him being covered in water and glass, along with this questionable blood splatter.

[quote]What does skin color have to do with this? What makes you think Hispanics can't stereotype? We will never know if that's what he was doing, however.[/quote] That's the problem. You and others have turned this into a case of racism without a spec of evidence. There is more important problems with this case but those will never get addressed because everyone is talking about the red-herring in this case, which is racism or the lack thereof.

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1332600840' post='2407018']
how about we all rachet it all down a little and wait for the facts. As a racial mutt myself, I am weary of the race card being played for everything.[/quote] Agreed

[quote name='r2Dtoo' timestamp='1332601314' post='2407023']
Groo, I understand where you are coming from, but this is just what people do: judge the situation based on the facts presented. If there are more facts presented that contradict what we know now, I'll change my mind. Short from that, you can't change human nature.
[/quote]

The problem is that the current facts don't support race, they support politics.

[r2Dtoo]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1332603806' post='2407043']
I didn't know this but I do know that the initial report that I'd read about it said that when the police arrived, Zimmerman was soaking wet from head to toe and had glass on his back. Indicating some sort of struggle.[/quote]
Interesting.

[quote]What responses? One's that demand evidence before we jump to conclusions about Zimmerman's intentions and/or motivations with regards to race? How is that worse...[/quote]
While I'm not sure exactly how anyone's comments "make it worse". I stand by my comment that you can not change human nature. People are going to form opinions based on what is presented to them. If there is evidence indicating otherwise than the police owe it to the public to release it. This idea that "we don't have all the facts and therefore we should withhold judgement" is just some utopian ideal that you an others are pushing. It will not work.

[quote]This is why the law itself is flawed. Zimmerman is not the only individual to have been protected by this law as such. We're only talking about it because certain individuals have turned it into a conversation about race, when it has little to nothing to do with race.[/quote]
Don't pretend the Second Amendment has anything to with this.

[quote]That's the problem. [b]You[/b] and others have turned this into a case of racism without a spec of evidence. There is more important problems with this case but those will never get addressed because everyone is talking about the red-herring in this case, which is racism or the lack thereof.[/quote]
I have? I specifically said we will never know the answer to that question.
[quote name='r2Dtoo' timestamp='1332599951' post='2407006']What does skin color have to do with this? What makes you think Hispanics can't stereotype? [b]We will never know if that's what he was doing, however.[/b][/quote]

Why can no one read?

[quote]The problem is that the current facts don't support race, they support politics.[/quote]
You could make a good argument that they support both, as I have done.

[kujo]

[quote name='r2Dtoo' timestamp='1332602331' post='2407036']
A good question. I would still object to Zimmerman's actions even if he did, but who knows how society would view.

What Zimmerman did shows irresponsibility on the part of a gun owner. I don't like it because it smells of racial profiling, and I don't like it because this type of perspective of this issue threatens my second amendment rights.
[/quote]

Good points.

[Mercy me]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1332553981' post='2406774']
There is absolutely no moral justification for this. As I said below in the post you were quoting, there may be legal justification. Although the bill's author claims that a situation like this shouldn't apply, it is possible that the ambiguous language will get him off. Which is why it is a flawed law.
[/quote]

The Stand Your Ground law is very specific. It was written to avoid vigilanteism but to allow people to defend themselves. What had been happening was crime victims were being charged for shooting people who were breaking into their homes or while they were being car jacked. From what I understand of this law and again, I have not been able to find the exact text lately although I have worked with it in the past, once the act of defense is complete and the offender retreats then the protection of the law ends. You can't shoot at someone who is running away.

What I find confusing is how this law applies in this case. I suspect that there is a lot that we don't know here.

[Norseman82]

The fact that the 911 tapes released reveal that the 911 operator told Zimmerman not to follow Martin is the key here and works against him.

[kujo]

[size=4]Here is the exact verbiage of the law. I've bolded the section that appears to be salient in this case:

[quote]776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
© The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. [url="http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0900-0999/0943/Sections/0943.10.html"]943.10[/url](14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
[i][b](3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.[/b][/i]
(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(5) As used in this section, the term:
(a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
(b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
© “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.[/quote]

In this case, Zimmerman will argue that he assumed that there existed a danger of "death or great bodily harm" to himself [i]and/or[/i] one of his neighbors, even while Trayvon was running away. The defense will say that the burden of proof otherwise lies with the defense. And since there is only circu[font=Trebuchet MS]mstantial evidence, including character assassinations ("he's a wannabe cop," "he's a racist"), he will be set free. [/font][/size]

Edited March 24, 2012 by kujo

[4588686]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1332598167' post='2406998']
*The shooter didn't know the person had skittles and a snapple.
*The shooter didn't know how old the person was.
*The shooter didn't know the person didn't have a gun. [/QUOTE]

So? The kids didn't approach him. He didn't start the confrontation. Zimmerman assumed, incorrectly, that the teenager did not belong in the neighborhood, and chose to initiate a confrontation. Again, may I say, floopy him. He chose to start a fight. Even if he was losing the fight (which he was responsible for), that's no reason to kill the kid. He outweighs him by like 100 pounds. He was not in danger. This man is a piece of poo.

[QUOTE] *The shooter did know there had been a rash of burglaries, and there was someone walking around his neighborhood. [/QUOTE]

I have burglaries in my neighborhood. I guess I too can chase down and confront every black male I see walking through there.

[QUOTE] *Someone pointed out the shooter had blood on him which is evidence of a fight.
[/quote]

There would not have been a fight had Zimmerman not chased after a kid who was minding his own business. At best, at the very best, he shot this 17 year old skinny kid who he outweighed substantially, because he was losing a fight that he bore responsibility for. There is no excuse for this kid being dead and no matter how you cut it Zimmerman bears responsibility for his death.

[kujo]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1332614391' post='2407140']
There is no excuse for this kid being dead and no matter how you cut it Zimmerman bears responsibility for his death.
[/quote]

Responsibility? Yeah, he bears that. But "legal culpability?" Not under this law...

[4588686]

[quote name='r2Dtoo' timestamp='1332599951' post='2407006']

What does skin color have to do with this? What makes you think Hispanics can't stereotype? We will never know if that's what he was doing, however.


[/quote]

Nah. Everybody knows that Hispanics are magically immune from being racists.

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1332614864' post='2407145']
Responsibility? Yeah, he bears that. But "legal culpability?" Not under this law...
[/quote]

That's what I mean. His legal responsibility is questionable. But there is no doubt about his personal, moral responsibility.