Discalced Carmelite Nun Communities

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

[quote name='mantellata' timestamp='1346961794' post='2479469']
Then on the flip side of things - St. Thomas Aquinas would say that a posture for prayer should neither be too uncomfortable nor too comfortable - so that one can remain alert for prayer.

The Dominican approach would be that one should choose the appropriate means to achieve the ends. This would mean that trying to create a "universal" posture in choir may be counter-productive.
[/quote]

Thats a good point! "Being alert in prayer" thats a nice way to put it too. .... I didn't find that the posture was uncomfortable. I guess trying to imagine what it would look like might seem that you weren't able to move. It wasn't that, though being still was important and not touching your face, or being fidgety with your hands. This was for greater reverence before Our Lord in The Blessed Sacrament, and helped with less distraction too. It can seem though that when one is too comfortable in any posture, or in anything really, can cause carelessness and self-indulgence. One fault will lead to another, as they say. Being uncomfortable during pray can be a distraction as well. Then finding that balance that is good for oneself would be important. But as the grace is there for someone called to that way of life in Carmel, they will find for them that everything had the right balance and wouldn't be a hinderance to prayer.

(I think I'm posting too much on this thread! I have a great love for Carmel and the traditions they continue to keep from Our Holy Mother) but just another little bit about this community; most of the prayers said in this community were done kneeling and also to get permissions, but if someone got what is termed "novice knees" they could get permission to stand, or sit if they had too.

[Laudem Gloriae]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1346945298' post='2479395']
Thank you Veni for posts. I find them very helpful. I believe "self-knowledge" is where older vocations would have a "leg up" on the younger ones. For if a person has any amount of insight at all they will indeed grow wiser as they grow older because of experience.

I would think posture is particular to Carmel (perhaps in their meditation/mental prayer periods) and not so much Poor Clares or Franciscans in general. The Franciscans are much more "loose" in this regard.
[/quote]

I know of many Carmels, even 1990s who have leeway in their praying postures - many communities tailor it to each sisters best availability.

Despite the Carmel of Kirk Edge, a 1990s, being so strict, austere, they have leeway in kneeling for mental prayer. For sisters who can kneel the full hour do. For those who can't (any age), their "policy" is: you kneel for the first and last 5 minutes of the hour (if at all possible) and then for the middle 50 minutes you can either continue to kneel, stand, use a prayer stool or for worse cases physically or temporary injures, sit in the choir stall and for those who can, not lean their back against the back of the stall.

Many Carmels see that though the preferred way is kneeling, many sisters have developed knee and back problems and sisters with injuries, knee and/or back conditions aren't conducive to good functioning in the community and often effects their vow of poverty with medical bills, etc. for sisters that wouldn't normally have needed medical attention if allowed options opposed to kneeling.

Many Prioresses in different Carmels have told me that a bad knee for one who enters Carmel doesn't preclude one from Carmel. So they have come to be wise and modify when needed - as in other areas.

As emmaberry mentioned her PCOS, many orders will and can accommodate you and your diet needs - within reason. Many are (Carmels and PCCs) will offer substitutes in their diet for you. Obviously you can't walk in and say "I am an Atkins or Primal eater so I must have meat at every meal!" when this is by choice but if you had a medical condition where you needed meat even a few times a week they usually can accommodate you - of course does depend on the community. That is allowed in St. Clare's rule and the rule in Carmels.

But about the "older vocations getting more set in their ways" is very wrong in many cases, of course not all but a lot! More like a misconception! I am 50 and I am NOT set in my ways! I have had MANY prioresses, abbesses of PCCs, Carmels and one Dominican monastery PREFER older women than younger ones but of course they take youngs! Once a very wise Abbess said that if orders compared the "numbers" to how many younger women left to how many older women left, they are often the same or not much difference! It's just easier to assume an older women left because she is: older, set in her ways, couldn't adapt, lived to long on her own, etc." when it more than like is she had no vocation to that order/community or none at all! Just like younger ones! I know many younger ones more set in their ways than older.

Perhaps some are set in their ways but myself and many others I know personally here in the world and others who entered orders and are professed do not see it that way. It comes down to will you totally surrender ALL to God? Will you totally practice and live your vow of Obedience to the prioress and others in the community? Will you give up your preconceived notions, your way of doing things is better, etc. These nuns who entered late in life did this and more. PLUS it comes down to God's grace AND if you even have a vocation to this order and community. Perhaps the ones who leave either did NOT have a vocation or where not willing to totally give God free reign and give up themselves.

And the "facing yourself" is different for each woman, some have a harder time than another will. It depends on your relationship to God before you enter. I can imagine a St. Clare or St. Teresa of the Andes or St. Therese entering and not doing to do too much 'facing of themselves' as they were so holy to begin with! The same with non-canonized saints - most of us know a few.

As for the "dark night", Padre Pio knew this as did Bl. Mother Teresa of Calcutta but though they were in terrible dark nights, they KNEW Jesus was beside them, with them during every second of it. That's the key. When you start to really believe and think God HAS left you, then you are done. If you think the dark night serves no purpose you are done. If you have no faith, trust, confidences in God that He IS there holding you, embracing you, loving you, then you are done and you'll leave the community or do very badly unnecessarily. Just say, "Jesus I trust in You"

I have a book (and it is available at the Notting Hill Carmel online book store) of the life of Mother Mary of Jesus, foundress fo the 33 Carmels in the UK, Wales and Scotland - Kirk Edge and Notting Hill of course - who besides on her life, it is a good book to study for a Carmelite novitiate (or even other order!) as she writes of the dark night and all and the advice given is so wonderful.

Reading saints, besides St. John of the Cross, who suffered from this and who they dealt with this: St. Therese, St. Pio, Bl. Teresa of Calcutta, and many others will help - besides much prayer, Our Lady and boundless trust and confidence in God!

[ACS67]

Laudem,
Is the book called "In the Silence of Mary"? I would like to read that.

I appreciate what you said about older vocations. I think perhaps I worded my response so that it was misunderstood. I certainly would never advocate for older women being "set in their ways." My position is that older women, older vocations have an advantage (my words "a leg up") over younger vocations in that they (the older women) have more self knowledge by the sheer fact of having lived and experienced life more than the younger. Would I still have a problem with the "permissions"? Yes. That is because right now, I'm too proud. I know this from "self knowledge." I have never thought of exploring a vocation to Carmel until recently (within the last month) but now I think I should, even though it would be the hardest thing I have ever done. Veni and Laudem your advice and encouragement is of great help to me, and I am sure others as well.

The "dark night" is not something to be taken lightly for sure. What you said Laudem is right on the mark. My consolation for the "dark night" (and I have had a few) is the Sacred Heart. I love the Sacred Heart, hence my avatar. That very picture is enthroned in my apartment.

Again, thanks so much Veni and Laudem. I appreciate your posts.

[emmaberry]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1346945298' post='2479395']
I would think posture is particular to Carmel (perhaps in their meditation/mental prayer periods) and not so much Poor Clares or Franciscans in general. The Franciscans are much more "loose" in this regard.
[/quote]

I remember Mother Francis in A Right to Be Merry saying she always sat up a little straighter when "[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4]This is that summit of the highest poverty which has established you, my dearest sisters, heiresses and queens of the kingdom of heaven[/size][/font]" was read from Saint Clare's Holy Rule, implying that she wasn't already concentrating on her posture. Good insight.

Also, in My Beloved, Sister speaks of the constant fatigue most nuns experience. She says that she leaned on the wall and a nun told her, "A Carmelite leans on nothing but Jesus"!!

Edit:


[color=#222222][font=Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][quote name='Laudem Gloriae' timestamp='1346973292' post='2479547']
But about the "older vocations getting more set in their ways" is very wrong in many cases, of course not all but a lot! More like a misconception! I am 50 and I am NOT set in my ways! I have had MANY prioresses, abbesses of PCCs, Carmels and one Dominican monastery PREFER older women than younger ones but of course they take youngs! Once a very wise Abbess said that if orders compared the "numbers" to how many younger women left to how many older women left, they are often the same or not much difference! It's just easier to assume an older women left because she is: older, set in her ways, couldn't adapt, lived to long on her own, etc." when it more than like is she had no vocation to that order/community or none at all! Just like younger ones! I know many younger ones more set in their ways than older.
[/quote]

Yes, I agree that not all older vocations are more set in their ways. It reminds me of some communities who make their age limit 21+, 25+, etc because they deem high school grads as too immature. It's great that there are so many communities who accept you, and of course I am so thankful some communities let high school graduates enter!

There really is a place for everyone in the Church. [/background][/size][/font][/color]

Edited September 7, 2012 by emmaberry

[mantellata]

I think phrase "set in ways" is perhaps not the best turn of phrase for what is being discussed.

Taste of independence perhaps.

My experience in religious life is that having this or [u]not having this[/u] can be a detriment to a vocation. Actually not having a sense of how to act as an independent and thinking woman is worse for a vocation than being older and knowing what you are giving up. It was - in my former community - a reason why a vocation director would tell a young woman to wait, go to college first.

There is more to "loose" when you are older - more to give up of the important things - family, nieces, nephews, career. The insecurity that one experiences in religious life after having given up all that seemed to promise stability makes it very difficult for an older vocation not to "look back" and wonder if it truly is right to give up so much. Yes obedience can seem a bit like tedium - but it is accepted more for what it is - a means of stripping the will of its ego - not just a carry-over from obedience to a girls parents.

I think what makes communities careful with older vocations is that you need to make sure that the woman is not on a rebound, not looking for security in a different way, not worried that she will not find a husband and does not want to "live alone", or has a host of other reasons that are not indicators of a calling to religious life. Physical ailments that are severe enough to constitute an impediment are also more prevalent among older vocations. This is why I think it is wonderful that there are some communities out there whose charism actually fosters older vocations - since they do exist.

Simply framing it as an obedience question or "set in ways" - while may be a factor, I believe is an over simplistic answer on its own.

[ACS67]

Mantellata,

You bring up some good points. I like what you said about obedience being understood as a "stripping of the ego." I definitely have an ego!

Even when I first desired to become a nun (way back when I was 19 years old, a Poor Clare nun but I was talked out of my the deacon at my church because he said the Poor Clares and those like them were "archaic, pre-Vatican II, they will be gone in 5 years." That was 1988. The Poor Clares are still around, Deo Gratias.) I never considered that I would be giving up anything that did not already belong to God in the first place. All that I have and am comes from God. That's just how I have always understood it.

[emmaberry]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1347035086' post='2479850']
...they will be gone in 5 years." That was 1988. The Poor Clares are still around, Deo Gratias.)[/quote]

Deo gratias indeed! I have read that there are 20,000 Poor Clares worldwide. "Gone in 5 years."

[mantellata]

Your deacon said WHAT?!

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1347035086' post='2479850']
I never considered that I would be giving up anything that did not already belong to God in the first place. All that I have and am comes from God. That's just how I have always understood it.
[/quote]

I really enjoyed how you put this! Thats certainly the detachment we need, isn't it? I was thinking back on your post about contacting that Carmelite community; I will keep this in prayer for you. That would be very exciting if you were to go and visit. When you visit a Carmel, you really don't want to leave; when we find Him in the silence who does want that to be disturbed? When you hear the Sisters behind the grille its just so captivating. When my parents came to visit they loved to just sit in the Chapel and listen to the Sisters pray. Please keep me in prayer also as I continue my discernment with Carmel. I'm thankful I have someone to help guide me as I didn't have this before and it has been such a help.

“Patience attains all that it strives for. He who has God Finds he lacks nothing: God alone suffices.” Our Holy Mother St. Teresa of Avila

[ACS67]

double post

Edited September 8, 2012 by ACS67

[ACS67]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=5][sub]Thank you Veni for your prayers. I will certainly keep you in mine. Carmel would be a big step for me. For some reason I have always held them as the "elites" of cloistered contemplatives and for that reason they "scare" me.
Emma/Mantellata,
1988. Those were some "dark days" for the Poor Clares. The entire 1980s actually. Many of their monasteries had 4-5 nuns. A lot of them joined assocations to band together or many of them gave in to the "times" and "updated." The ones who did not (Roswell, St. Louis, those in the Immaculate Conception Assocation) were ridiculed. Not only did my deacon (who was my RCIA instructor) say what he said, he told me my parrish priest would never give me a recommendation to such an order as the Poor Clares and that I should look into the more active orders. Which I did but I never found in any of them what I thought I was called to, which was contemplation. At that time I had no idea what "pre-Vatican II" meant. I didn't even know there was a Vatican I or anything for that matter about Councils, encyclicals, Church Fathers. None of that. We didn't learn it in RCIA. RCIA was very new at that time. We didn't even have the new Catechism back then (It came out in 1993 I believe). Keep in mind there was no internet back then. It was a very different time. I live in a state that is nominally Catholic by population and the population that is Catholic is progressive and always has been. I moved away for several years and only came back 3 years ago. Although still progressive, it is better here than it was back in 1988 when I came into the Church. Emma, you should ask any of the nuns at Roswell sometime if they have any memories of the 1980s.[/sub][/size][/font]

Edited September 8, 2012 by ACS67

[mantellata]

I am sorry that you had such a poor RCIA experience. I know many others have had similar experiences especially during the 70s and 80s. I suppose that the hopeful thing is that with our dear Sainted John Paul II so much has been rebuilt - the first seeds of the new springtime that he spoke about. I know that I have seen much development for the better in terms of catechesis in the present generation than those past. Of course we are far from there yet - but it is an exciting "missionary" time to be in the Church right now!!

[ACS67]

I appreciate that mantellata. You know God permitted me to go through that particular RCIA program at that particular time for a reason. I don't know what that reason was as of now but someday I trust I will know. Sadly my RCIA sponsor is now a sedevacantist. *sigh*....It was a odd time for the Church. I know that now looking back. I'm glad things are turning around, slowly but surely.

[emmaberry]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1347110668' post='2480236']
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=5][sub]Emma, you should ask any of the nuns at Roswell sometime if they have any memories of the 1980s.[/sub][/size][/font]
[/quote]

I will! Although I will need to pick which Sisters I ask very carefully-I don't want a younger Sister to think I am calling her old.

I know Mother Francis [s]Francs[/s] wrote some books in that tumultuous period, one of which is Strange Gods Before Me, which addresses many of the aspects of modernization that were being implemented by various religious communities.

I suppose that the enclosed womb of the cloister was a perk in that period....but suspect that the ridicule still wormed its way in.

Thank you for that ACS67-I had a general idea of that time, but not having been born yet, it is always nice to hear specifics (even if they aren't happy specifics). Then again, I doubt there are many 'happy' specifics to speak of.

Edited September 8, 2012 by emmaberry

[ACS67]

I received a letter today from the Des Plaines Carmelites. Mother said I could come for a visit. I'm really nervous. Carmelites intimidate me. They are way out of my league! But I have to go otherwise I will always wonder, "what if?" However, I have to say, I'm excited to see Chicago again even if it will be briefly. I lived there for 4 years. It's quite a town.

[Chiquitunga]

[color=#222222][font='Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]

Yay!!! That is so wonderful!!! I will be praying for you!


Also I meant to post this before, but I really appreciate your sharing your experience here from the 1980's .. really adds a perspective that we might often forget on VS. Those were tough times.. I know especially for Carmel too. There was so much tension over the Constitutions! The Carmels that wanted the old ones had to go directly to the Vatican and they (particularly a major Cardinal and Blessed JPII) were in favor of what they wanted as opposed to the friars .. and then they were approved December 8th, 1990. Ah, I think it's so important to know this history! to know what the nuns had to go through to persevere what we have today...[/background][/size][/font][/color]

Edited September 10, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[Chiquitunga]

double post

Edited September 10, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[ACS67]

I am usually very reluctant to tell that story about the experience back in the 1980s because I don't want it to sound like I am blaming the priest or deacon at my parish for my not becoming a nun. Yes they influenced me but it was just the "times." It all happened for a reason.

Any details about Des PLaines Carmelite Monastery that I should know about before going Chiquitunga? You are so knowledgeable about Carmel.

[Chiquitunga]

Thanks, but no.. I'm not so knowledgeable really .. again, just so many random things here and there that I've heard from others discerning, priests, my own experience, etc. It's like one big collage in my head!! But if only I had half that much virtue .. which I don't!

But anyway, I can PM you more about Des Plaines. For one thing, they don't have Extern Sisters. When people go to visit there to leave prayer intentions, etc. they ring the door bell in front, talk through the speaker and the huge door is unlocked. Then you can go in and talk to the Sister behind the Turn. The place is like a fortress really .. very strong thick walls, which the Constitutions do specifically ask for They have a couple Novices I believe .. and one just made her First Profession. Many people knew her. She was the type the world wouldn't expect to enter the cloister. I love stories like that!! Just shows the world how foolish it is .. and how much God is everything!! the most amazing Husband you could ever have!

[ACS67]

Thanks Chiquitunga! Yes. PM me. I tried to send you a message but it said you couldn't receive messages or something like that.

Thanks again!