Discalced Carmelite Nun Communities

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

Alright, just one more post here .... for today anyway.

This website is new to me, has anyone else seen it? Its the website for the Carmelite Monastery of The Holy Cross in Iron Mountain Michigan. It has a lot of pictures and great slideshows. I wonder if its new? Or maybe I just missed it. They seem to be doing well with vocations. The last I heard is that they had 22 Sisters; two are externs.

[url="http://www.holycrosscarmel.com/"]http://www.holycrosscarmel.com/[/url]

[emmaberry]

[quote name='lmsb1231' timestamp='1347999532' post='2483865']
I had a question: Does anyone know why the cloistered Carmelites have Eucharistic Adoration only a few times a month? I was curious if there was a spiritual reason for this.
[/quote]

Like VJAM said (sorry for abbreviating your beautiful name, btw!), this is only my opinion, but it may have something to do with Carmel's heritage/beginnings from the life of the prophet Elijah. Obviously, there was no Eucharist before Christ's blessed resurrection. I would guess this has something to do with Adoration not being a part of the typical Carmelite horarium. The historical context is the reason Poor Clares are so focused on adoration, since they were founded during the medieval era when the Eucharist was being 'rediscovered' as worthy of praise and devotion outside of Holy Mass. Also, Saint Francis was extremely devoted to the Blessed Sacrament, so this overflowed into the whole Franciscan Order.

Sorry, that was quite a ramble, but I would suppose that, had Carmel been founded during the medieval ages, adoration of the Blessed Sacrament might have been a part of the daily horarium. It may sound strange, but I am so thankful that Carmel and other perpetual adoration contemplative orders differ in this way. Carmel has produced so many mystics, and it is wonderful that there are a variety of orders to support different nuances of prayer. I wrote into my application how I had discerned Carmel, but found that I am too easily distracted to pray 'inside my head,' so to speak. I am weak in prayer and I need the Blessed Sacrament there before me to hold my focus and keep both my mental and physical gaze, as PCs have 2+ hours of mental prayer, like the Carmelites. I so admire Carmelite nuns for their prayer-it is truly an ancient form like that of the Old Testament prophets.

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

[quote name='lmsb1231' timestamp='1347999532' post='2483865']
Hello!

I had a question: Does anyone know why the cloistered Carmelites have Eucharistic Adoration only a few times a month? I was curious if there was a spiritual reason for this.

Thank you! God bless =]
[/quote]

I couldn't find much at all, but I found this that might help answer this question (I found it on a thread posted last year.)

"Adoration is not a part of the charism of Carmel. Carmelite nuns are not "adorers" (in the strict sense, as in Adoring the exposed Blessed Sacrament) but they seek/adore the hidden Christ within, the Indwelling Trinity."

I did believe that it very well had to do with Carmelite spirituality being very interior. Always being with Jesus in her heart. The Carmelite is called to imitate Our Blessed Mother "who pondered all things in her heart."

I've always loved this prayer from Blessed Elizabeth of The Trinity:

"Mother of God, tell me your mystery;
of how your earthly life was spent:
the way, right from the time of 'Fiat' - how you'd be
buried in adoration, Mary!
Say how - in a peace, a silence - you could enter in
to deeps that none but you could do -
bearing the gift of God within."

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1348027992' post='2484031']
Like VJAM said (sorry for abbreviating your beautiful name, btw!), this is only my opinion, but it may have something to do with Carmel's heritage/beginnings from the life of the prophet Elijah. Obviously, there was no Eucharist before Christ's blessed resurrection. I would guess this has something to do with Adoration not being a part of the typical Carmelite horarium. The historical context is the reason Poor Clares are so focused on adoration, since they were founded during the medieval era when the Eucharist was being 'rediscovered' as worthy of praise and devotion outside of Holy Mass. Also, Saint Francis was extremely devoted to the Blessed Sacrament, so this overflowed into the whole Franciscan Order.

Sorry, that was quite a ramble, but I would suppose that, had Carmel been founded during the medieval ages, adoration of the Blessed Sacrament might have been a part of the daily horarium. It may sound strange, but I am so thankful that Carmel and other perpetual adoration contemplative orders differ in this way. Carmel has produced so many mystics, and it is wonderful that there are a variety of orders to support different nuances of prayer. I wrote into my application how I had discerned Carmel, but found that I am too easily distracted to pray 'inside my head,' so to speak. I am weak in prayer and I need the Blessed Sacrament there before me to hold my focus and keep both my mental and physical gaze, as PCs have 2+ hours of mental prayer, like the Carmelites. I so admire Carmelite nuns for their prayer-it is truly an ancient form like that of the Old Testament prophets.
[/quote]

That's really beautiful, Emmaberry! I like how you said "it is wonderful that there are a variety of orders to support different nuances of prayer." All spiritualities are unique in their own ways, but each one brings us to intimate union with Our Lord. The Holy Spirit moves where He will. Now that you said it (I didn't even consider it before) that it must have something to do also with the history of Carmel right back to the start. I have a great love for Carmel, and though I learned so much in the monastery, there's still so much more for me to know.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

Another of my ignorant questions........

Since, as I understand it, Sisters in Carmel have two hours of personal prayer a day (perhaps this differs by Community), would there be anything to forbid a Sister from spending all or part of her personal prayer time in Adoration? Or would just the fact of the Sister praying in front of the monstrance go against the intentions of St. Teresa of Avila as to the purpose of private prayer time.

And now a REALLY ignorant question.....Is it also that a Sister might not be able to pray in Adoration because the Eucharist is not exposed at all times? (This is when you can tell I'm not Catholic. Also, please correct me if I have not used all the terms correctly. Despite the fact that some very "high" Episcopal/Anglican churches set aside a time for Adoration for the congregation, it was not a concept I had heard about before joining Phatmass.)

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1348065480' post='2484148']

I've always loved this prayer from Blessed Elizabeth of The Trinity:

"Mother of God, tell me your mystery;
of how your earthly life was spent:
the way, right from the time of 'Fiat' - how you'd be
buried in adoration, Mary!
Say how - in a peace, a silence - you could enter in
to deeps that none but you could do -
bearing the gift of God within."
[/quote]

Thank-you for posting this. I am only just starting to get to know Mary (and the process has been VERY slow and difficult at times).

As I've started to "get to know" Mary, it's been disappointing just how little we know about her--although the few things we do know are very "telling." I have all kinds of questions to ask her should I meet her someday.

But, perhaps it's just as well that we know so little about Mary so that we don't lose the primary focus, which is Jesus. And, it makes what little we DO know about Mary even more important.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1348065480' post='2484148']
I couldn't find much at all, but I found this that might help answer this question (I found it on a thread posted last year.)

"Adoration is not a part of the charism of Carmel. Carmelite nuns are not "adorers" (in the strict sense, as in Adoring the exposed Blessed Sacrament) but they seek/adore the hidden Christ within, the Indwelling Trinity."

I did believe that it very well had to do with Carmelite spirituality being very interior. Always being with Jesus in her heart. The Carmelite is called to imitate Our Blessed Mother "who pondered all things in her heart."

I've always loved this prayer from Blessed Elizabeth of The Trinity:

"Mother of God, tell me your mystery;
of how your earthly life was spent:
the way, right from the time of 'Fiat' - how you'd be
buried in adoration, Mary!
Say how - in a peace, a silence - you could enter in
to deeps that none but you could do -
bearing the gift of God within."
[/quote]

Veni, is that something I wrote? (not the prayer from Blessed Elizabeth but the little sentence above) Just wondering .. I could look it up myself :j because it's a combination of two things I have heard from two different Prioresses. But actually there are some Carmels that have a little more adoration now .. as is known [url="http://mtcarmel.stormpages.com/page4.html"]St. Louis[/url] (1991) but also the 1990 one in Wichita, KS [url="http://carmelofwichita.com/"]http://carmelofwichita.com/[/url] which is a new Carmel (actually not that new, but they have a long story of how they were founded & they are building a new monastery) They have a lot more adoration than most Carmels, all day and night every Thursday and additional time on Sundays. I did hear from a Carmel once that in Blessed Elizabeth's Carmel they had exposition every Sunday also .. not sure how long though. But anyway, I actually [i]just [/i]recently asked a priest who knows Carmel very well this exact question about adoration! I will look at the email again and see what I can post here, but basically he said mostly what has already been said.. how Carmelite prayer is especially interior, and not to be dependent on the external .. though again, all Carmels [i]do[/i] have some adoration at least, some more.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[emmaberry]

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1348066133' post='2484154']
That's really beautiful, Emmaberry! I like how you said "it is wonderful that there are a variety of orders to support different nuances of prayer." All spiritualities are unique in their own ways, but each one brings us to intimate union with Our Lord. The Holy Spirit moves where He will. Now that you said it (I didn't even consider it before) that it must have something to do also with the history of Carmel right back to the start. I have a great love for Carmel, and though I learned so much in the monastery, there's still so much more for me to know.
[/quote]

Yes! This is one of my favorite things about being Catholic-I converted 3 years ago after being in almost every Protestant denomination. Protestants, especially the Fundamentalist churches I was in, God bless them, often see the Church as restrictive and limiting in the sense of 'personal' spirituality. I have been so pleased to find that this is not so! Even in my search for women's religious communities, which is such a small fraction of the Church, there is so much variety for whatever and wherever the Holy Spirit is drawing her. I am sure you did learn so much in your time at the monastery! It is great to have so many who are so knowledge about Carmel on VS.

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1348078938' post='2484227']
Another of my ignorant questions........

Since, as I understand it, Sisters in Carmel have two hours of personal prayer a day (perhaps this differs by Community), would there be anything to forbid a Sister from spending all or part of her personal prayer time in Adoration? Or would just the fact of the Sister praying in front of the monstrance go against the intentions of St. Teresa of Avila as to the purpose of private prayer time.

And now a REALLY ignorant question.....Is it also that a Sister might not be able to pray in Adoration because the Eucharist is not exposed at all times? (This is when you can tell I'm not Catholic. Also, please correct me if I have not used all the terms correctly. Despite the fact that some very "high" Episcopal/Anglican churches set aside a time for Adoration for the congregation, it was not a concept I had heard about before joining Phatmass.)
[/quote]
I don't know enough about Saint Teresa of Avila or Carmel's constitutions to answer, but your terms are correct! :D

For Catholics, adoration can take place in front of the tabernacle where the Blessed Sacrament is reserved and also in exposition, where the Blessed Sacrament is exposed in the monstrance. The only Carmel I have visited (in Arlington-very kind and helpful nuns) had the L shape, ie the nuns look at the altar from the side and are mostly hidden from the public's view. Their choir enabled them to look directly at the tabernacle, so this could be called adoration. The reason I might be hesitant to call it that is that I don't think all Carmelites pray mental prayer in community. I have heard of some who walk outside, but this might have been for a nun's hermit day or some other special event. Also, if you look at documentaries or photos of Carmelite nuns, they are often looking down with eyes shut in mental prayer, because of their focus on the interior, which they take from the Blessed Mother. In contrast, Poor Clares usually pray in front of the exposed Eucharist, and their eyes are pretty consistently upward on Him. It is a difference in charism and type of prayer. Also, when the Blessed Sacrament is in the tabernacle, no one is required to be there for before Him. When the Eucharist is exposed, at least one person must be adoring Him at all times. So the Carmelite may adore if her choir looks on the tabernacle, but generally, as VJAM said, they are not 'adorers.'

Please take everything I say concerning Carmel with a grain of salt. I have very little experience with Carmel, so anything I know is from VS!

Edited September 19, 2012 by emmaberry

[ACS67]

Emma,
I think what you said is very insightful. If you have this much insight into your calling then I think you will do well as a contemplative nun. Had I known what you now know I would have realized that I was never a Franciscan but possibly (I say possibly) a Carmelite.

I would just echo what everyone else is saying...that Carmel is interior and that is why the focus on the externals even the Blessed Sacrament is excluded. St. John of the Cross calls for Carmelites to go "beyond concepts." We all have our own subjective "concepts" of who Our Lord is, who God is despite the very objective teaching of the Church. I believe this is just natural because we all have different circumstances in which we grow up creating different minds, therefore we all learn and conceive differently. However, we must all realize the real danger of clinging to concepts and I believe this is what St. John was talking about in Ascent to Mount Carmel. God/Our Lord is all the things the Church has said he is (and even a few of the things we may "think" he is subjectively) and yet he is none of those things. He is beyond those concepts because he is beyond all concepts. I believe this is why Carmel strips all the exteriors away so that God/Our Lord can reveal who He is in His Essence (borrowing a bit from the Eastern Church), who He truly is at His "core" not merely in our subjective "ideas" and even "fantasies" (yes some women religious contemplatives I have encountered have "fantasies." Innocent fantasies, nevertheless, fantasies of Our Lord).

I believe this is the reason why most Carmels (1990's I would assume) do not have devotions in their horarium. Although some are adding devotions like the Divine Mercy which I think is unfortunate. Not because the Divine Mercy is not worthy of devotion but simply because it is once again, an external...it's not part of Carmel.

These are all just my thoughts...I'm no expert on Carmel...far from it!

Edited September 19, 2012 by ACS67

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1348078938' post='2484227']
Another of my ignorant questions........

Since, as I understand it, Sisters in Carmel have two hours of personal prayer a day (perhaps this differs by Community), would there be anything to forbid a Sister from spending all or part of her personal prayer time in Adoration? Or would just the fact of the Sister praying in front of the monstrance go against the intentions of St. Teresa of Avila as to the purpose of private prayer time.[/quote]
No worries about your questions! They are not stupid. So about a Sister spending some of her personal prayer time in adoration .. well first, the Sisters are all altogether in choir for their meditation times (although in some '91 Carmels, they can be in the cell) so she cannot simply expose the Eucharist on her own.

[img]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NX_WKfuGCWQ/T2jbiEzAyBI/AAAAAAAACTY/ZzNMHeu5vPQ/s576/16%2520ke-morning-inchoir.jpg[/img]


Also, exposition is reserved for a priest, though in extraordinary cases it can be done by an EMHC (Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion, which could be a Nun) I know many PCCs do this (again with permission, they are EMHCs) including Rockford and Palos Park when they have private adoration in their enclosure choirs. Then in Rockford on Fridays they have public exposition where a priest exposes Our Lord on the main altar, which both the nuns and public can see. But anyway, back to Carmel, no an individual Sister could not simply expose the Eucharist for her own prayer time (same with PCCs) And no, the reason wouldn't be because this is against St. Teresa's intentions.

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1348078938' post='2484227']And now a REALLY ignorant question.....Is it also that a Sister might not be able to pray in Adoration because the Eucharist is not exposed at all times? (This is when you can tell I'm not Catholic. Also, please correct me if I have not used all the terms correctly. Despite the fact that some very "high" Episcopal/Anglican churches set aside a time for Adoration for the congregation, it was not a concept I had heard about before joining Phatmass.)
[/quote]
No worries again, although I don't know if I fully understand your question .. but I would answer that the Eucharist can be exposed at specific times.. but yes, not according to when the individual Sister wants but what that particular community does. Hope this answers your question a bit

Also, as long as I'm posting pictures from Kirk Edge/Sheffield, they have a special little choir behind the altar (I believe it is, LaudemGloriae can help me here) where they do have specific times of adoration throughout the day on special Feast days. So again, it is really up to the individual Carmels regarding how much expositition they have. But in general it is not a major part of Carmelite life, as compared to the Poor Clares, as their charism is especially to seek the Lord within

[img]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-le1Tk5ZbTnI/TrWK05wUjmI/AAAAAAAACxY/xTrCYk8m_WY/s497/pray3.jpg[/img]

Edited September 19, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[lmsb1231]

Thank you everyone for the wonderful answers!! :] God bless

[Chiquitunga]

ACS67, everything you say there is correct about additional devotions and Carmel. I will come back to address that later as I have to go. But generally, I have heard this is part of some of the differences between French and Spanish Carmel [i]in general [/i]Very much in general there .. because I know Dallas, a very Spanish Carmel, is not big on adding devotions either, while Wichita is very devotional (<-- most of their Sisters are Mexican) I know Buffalo, Brooklyn & Alexandria all have the option of coming to choir to pray the Divine Mercy chaplet in community, but again, it's [i]totally optional[/i], it is during work time. I think that's a good balance.

They do not do this in the JMJ Carmels, as I heard from someone who talked to the Prioress there (about the DM chaplet) that they do not want to impose devotions on the nuns but they can pray it privately (also she said because their Office is so long, which it is!).. this is how Iron Mt. is too, with devotions, and they are also Spanish. Anyway, I will come back later to add more, although I've probably said a good amount already :j But yes, generally French Carmels emphasize devotions and the external less than Spanish Carmels .. also I have heard that generally French Carmels emphasize solitude a bit more too.

p.s. I know I promised at one point in this thread or another to talk about some of the differences in French and Spanish Carmels, so here's a start

Edited September 19, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[ACS67]

Thanks Chiquitunga! Knowing the difference between the French and Spanish would be a great help. I received the schedule for Des Plaines and Mother did not indicate any devotions in their schedule whatsoever other than the Litany to Our Lady after None. It seems they do not even pray the Rosary in common (Although I know many Benedictines that do not do this as well, Solesmes nuns in Vermont for instance did not do so years ago...they may now however).

Edited September 19, 2012 by ACS67

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1348083482' post='2484262']
[b]Veni, is that something I wrote?[/b] (not the prayer from Blessed Elizabeth but the little sentence above) Just wondering .. I could look it up myself :j because it's a combination of two things I have heard from two different Prioresses. But actually there are some Carmels that have a little more adoration now .. as is known [url="http://mtcarmel.stormpages.com/page4.html"]St. Louis[/url] (1991) but also the 1990 one in Wichita, KS [url="http://carmelofwichita.com/"]http://carmelofwichita.com/[/url] which is a new Carmel (actually not that new, but they have a long story of how they were founded & they are building a new monastery) They have a lot more adoration than most Carmels, all day and night every Thursday and additional time on Sundays. I did hear from a Carmel once that in Blessed Elizabeth's Carmel they had exposition every Sunday also .. not sure how long though. But anyway, I actually [i]just [/i]recently asked a priest who knows Carmel very well this exact question about adoration! I will look at the email again and see what I can post here, but basically he said mostly what has already been said.. how Carmelite prayer is especially interior, and not to be dependent on the external .. though again, all Carmels [i]do[/i] have some adoration at least, some more.
[/quote]


Yes! That was from you.

Here is the link to the past thread that I found it on. It was called "Difference Between Carmelite And Poor Clare Convents."

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/112929-difference-between-carmelite-and-poor-clare-convents/"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/112929-difference-between-carmelite-and-poor-clare-convents/[/url]

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1348079458' post='2484235']
Thank-you for posting this. I am only just starting to get to know Mary (and the process has been VERY slow and difficult at times).

As I've started to "get to know" Mary, it's been disappointing just how little we know about her--although the few things we do know are very "telling." I have all kinds of questions to ask her should I meet her someday.

But, perhaps it's just as well that we know so little about Mary so that we don't lose the primary focus, which is Jesus. And, it makes what little we DO know about Mary even more important.
[/quote]

Thats really beautiful, IgnatiusofLoyola. God reward you for sharing.

I won't get into my whole conversion story but it did happen that I got to know more about Our Blessed Mother before I got to know Jesus. As I grew in my faith, and learning about her motherly role I saw that all along it was her that was leading me to know and love Jesus. She has a very special place in my heart.

I like how you said that "it's just as well that we know so little about Mary so that we don't lose the primary focus, which is Jesus." In her great humility, she wouldn't want it any other way! Everything she has done and said in her life, through the saints and still now was and is for us. She only wants what Jesus wants; she wants us to know and love Him.

Edited September 19, 2012 by VeniJesuAmorMi

[Graciela]

I would like to develop a list of Discalced Carmelite Monasteries in the US and Canada that have a 6 moth to 1 year postulancy and a one year novitiate. The majority seem to have 1 year postulancy and 2 years of novitiate before first profession.

Dallas is one that seems to have the 1 year novitiate, but I am unsure of their postulancy.

Perhaps also Des Plaines and the one in Armstrong, B.C. ?

Others, please? Is this a 1990 vs 1991 constitutions difference?

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

[quote name='Graciela' timestamp='1348182518' post='2484766']
I would like to develop a list of Discalced Carmelite Monasteries in the US and Canada that have a 6 moth to 1 year postulancy and a one year novitiate. The majority seem to have 1 year postulancy and 2 years of novitiate before first profession.

Dallas is one that seems to have the 1 year novitiate, but I am unsure of their postulancy.

Perhaps also Des Plaines and the one in Armstrong, B.C. ?

Others, please? Is this a 1990 vs 1991 constitutions difference?
[/quote]

I only know of three communities. Maybe Chiquitunga has information about this?

The Valparaiso Carmel and their foundation in Elysburg (now in Canyon, CA also) have 6 months - 1 year postulancy, 1 year of canonical novitiate, and 3 years of first vows, then one year of being a gray veil, then they make solemn vows. I wonder how many other communities also have the one year of being a grey veil? Its when after the 3 years of first vows the Sister leaves the novitiate and joins the solemn professed Sisters for one year as a preparation for solemn vows. ( Someone who hasn't heard about this may think they actually receive a grey colored veil, but they just call it this because she's no longer a white veil in the novitiate (though she still keeps her white veil when she leaves) but she doesn't have a black veil yet either (until her solemn profession); I guess this is why they call it being a grey veil.)

[truthfinder]

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1348192544' post='2484878']
I only know of three communities. Maybe Chiquitunga has information about this?

The Valparaiso Carmel and their foundation in Elysburg (now in Canyon, CA also) have 6 months - 1 year postulancy, 1 year of canonical novitiate, and 3 years of first vows, then one year of being a gray veil, then they make solemn vows. I wonder how many other communities also have the one year of being a grey veil? Its when after the 3 years of first vows the Sister leaves the novitiate and joins the solemn professed Sisters for one year as a preparation for solemn vows. ( Someone who hasn't heard about this may think they actually receive a grey colored veil, but they just call it this because she's no longer a white veil in the novitiate (though she still keeps her white veil when she leaves) but she doesn't have a black veil yet either (until her solemn profession); I guess this is why they call it being a grey veil.)
[/quote]
Actually, the Dominican nuns of Summit have this practice. Though they actually have black veils because they receive them at first vows. Sr. MC would be able to give more details.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1348013718' post='2483955']
Alright, just one more post here .... for today anyway.

This website is new to me, has anyone else seen it? Its the website for the Carmelite Monastery of The Holy Cross in Iron Mountain Michigan. It has a lot of pictures and great slideshows. I wonder if its new? Or maybe I just missed it. They seem to be doing well with vocations. The last I heard is that they had 22 Sisters; two are externs.

[url="http://www.holycrosscarmel.com/"]http://www.holycrosscarmel.com/[/url]
[/quote]

Veni, yes it is relatively new Here's MMs thread about it from last year, [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/116205-carmel-of-the-holy-cross-in-iron-mountain-mi/"]http://www.phatmass....on-mountain-mi/[/url]

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1348094455' post='2484368']
Yes! That was from you.

Here is the link to the past thread that I found it on. It was called "Difference Between Carmelite And Poor Clare Convents."

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/112929-difference-between-carmelite-and-poor-clare-convents/"]http://www.phatmass....clare-convents/[/url]
[/quote]

Thanks! when I first saw it I thought for a second it was someone else and that perhaps they had visited and talked with the same Prioress as me

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1348095069' post='2484372']I won't get into my whole conversion story but it did happen that I got to know more about Our Blessed Mother before I got to know Jesus. As I grew in my faith, and learning about her motherly role I saw that all along it was her that was leading me to know and love Jesus. She has a very special place in my heart.[/quote]
Same story here with getting to know Our Lady first before Jesus.. It's so beautiful how she leads us to Him

Edited September 21, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='VeniJesuAmorMi' timestamp='1348192544' post='2484878']
I only know of three communities. Maybe Chiquitunga has information about this?

The Valparaiso Carmel and their foundation in Elysburg (now in Canyon, CA also) have 6 months - 1 year postulancy, 1 year of canonical novitiate, and 3 years of first vows, then one year of being a gray veil, then they make solemn vows. I wonder how many other communities also have the one year of being a grey veil? Its when after the 3 years of first vows the Sister leaves the novitiate and joins the solemn professed Sisters for one year as a preparation for solemn vows. ( Someone who hasn't heard about this may think they actually receive a grey colored veil, but they just call it this because she's no longer a white veil in the novitiate (though she still keeps her white veil when she leaves) but she doesn't have a black veil yet either (until her solemn profession); I guess this is why they call it being a grey veil.)
[/quote]

Veni, that is interesting .. I have never heard the term "grey veil" (it's a nice term though, makes sense )before but I have heard of several Carmels (I kind of assumed it was all of them) where the First Professed spend the [u]first two years in the novitiate[/u] and then the [u]last year (3rd) they are with the Solemn Professed[/u]. So generally it could be as soon as [b]4 1/2[/b] years from the time you enter until Solemn Profession, if you have a Carmel with a 6 month postulancy and one year novitiate. I know several nuns where this is exactly how it went for them .. in Buffalo, Brooklyn, Dallas, Alexandria & Littleton .. also Des Plaines.

I thought it was this way in Valparaiso too .. so they always spend [b][u]4 years in temporary vows then?[/u][/b] If so then the fastest you can get through there (funny wording there I know :j) is[b] 5 1/2 years[/b] ..

But actually I know someone who [b]entered Valparaiso August 5, 2007 and made her Solemn Profession June 16, 2012[/b] (Feast of the IHM, new rite feast actually, though it was an EF Mass I am sure, definitely was that day, not July) That's a [u]little less than 5 years.[/u] Hmm... well but also, I have heard of temporary vows lasting longer according to each particular nun .. but then ... the First Profession is made for three years specifically (it's written in the Constitutions that way) ... would they renew it for another year? I'm not sure how this works .. which brings up another question .. does the Solemn Profession have to be exactly after three years? because then technically the Sister's vows are expired right? Sorry I'm making things more complicated here!!

To throw in another situation, I know a nun in Alexandria Carmel who made her First Profession October 2, 2009 (Feast of the Guardian Angels) and is now making her Solemn Profession September 29, 2012 (Feast of the Archangels) So the First Vows were [i]technically[/i] less than three years

p.s. just bolded and underlined things with the hope that this post won't be too hard to reply to

[quote name='truthfinder' timestamp='1348202436' post='2484952']
Actually, the Dominican nuns of Summit have this practice. Though they actually have black veils because they receive them at first vows. Sr. MC would be able to give more details.
[/quote]

maybe she can help with my questions here too! so then in Summit the First Professed are 3 years in the novitiate and 1 year with the Solemns? or is it how I have seen it in many Carmels .. during the time of their three years in temporary vows, the [u]first two years are in the novitiate and the third is with the Solemn Professed?[/u]

Edited September 21, 2012 by Chiquitunga