Usccb Allows Guitars At Mass

[Lil Red]

[quote name='dells_of_bittersweet' timestamp='1344822570' post='2466668']
Vatican II gave regional authorities the power to allow instruments other than the organ, and in her wisdom, the USCCB has allowed guitars for use at Mass in America.

[color=#000000][font=Times New Roman][size=1][size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]"In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man's mind to God and to higher things.[/font][/size][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Times New Roman][size=1][size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] [b]But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority[/b], as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful." (VI. 120-"Sacrosanctum Concilium" Vatican II)[/font][/size][/size][/font][/color]

"In the same year [1967], the U.S. Bishop's Liturgy Committee approved the use of contemporary music, as well as guitars and other suitable instruments, in the liturgy. The Holy See authorized in 1968 the use of musical instruments other than the organ, 'provided they are played in a manner suitable to worship.'" (Dr. Matthew Bunson, Catholic Almanac, 2011, pg. 187)
[/quote]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/122928-life-teen-mass/page__st__40#entry2466750"]Read this[/url].

also: why did you create a new thread? this could have gone in with the life teen thread.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='dells_of_bittersweet' timestamp='1344824170' post='2466676']
Who says we aren't a mission land right now? America has one of the most Godless, anti-Catholic cultures even known to mankind. I think we need to take special measures to evangelize our pagan culture.
[/quote]

special measures like making the liturgy and the music reflect what is happening during the Mass would be a good start.

[Papist]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1344869712' post='2466876']
Why should the Church infuse the practices of a culture that is godless and anti-catholic into the Mass? The Church should be counterculture when the culture is anti-catholic and godless.

[s]Goofy hippie[/s] guitar music doesn't belong in the Mass.
[/quote]
Fixed

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='LaPetiteSoeur' timestamp='1344870228' post='2466883']
My old parish uses guitars at the Spanish Mass. The music is all from Mexico (from the music books that our parishioners brought with them). I think they have a place, especially in an "ethnic"Mass. Since they didn't use organs in their state in Mexico, they used what they had. It's reverent and it is comforting to many--it's the music they remember from Church at home, even when they are in a foreign country.

I'd rather have a piano than a Hammond organ any day. Hammonds are awful (think funeral home/home organs without pipes). Organs are also really expensive to keep up, and some parishes don't have the funds to fix their organ (it took my parish some 10 years to raise enough money to fix our 107 year old organ), and so pianos are necessary.
[/quote].

Before people started using VII to abuse the liturgy the faithful of Mexico sang chant like the rest of the faithful in the Latin Rite. The introduction of the guitar at Mass is a novelty. Also Pope Pius X clearly forbid the use of the piano at Mass.

[Papist]

[quote name='dells_of_bittersweet' timestamp='1344822570' post='2466668']
Vatican II gave regional authorities the power to allow instruments other than the organ, and in her wisdom, the USCCB has allowed guitars for use at Mass in America.

[color=#000000][font=Times New Roman][size=1][size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]"In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man's mind to God and to higher things.[/font][/size][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Times New Roman][size=1][size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] [b]But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority[/b], as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful." (VI. 120-"Sacrosanctum Concilium" Vatican II)[/font][/size][/size][/font][/color]

"In the same year [1967], the U.S. Bishop's Liturgy Committee approved the use of contemporary music, as well as guitars and other suitable instruments, in the liturgy. The Holy See authorized in 1968 the use of musical instruments other than the organ, 'provided they are played in a manner suitable to worship.'" (Dr. Matthew Bunson, Catholic Almanac, 2011, pg. 187)
[/quote]
Do you believe there are instrument(s) that should not be allowed within the Mass? If so, why?

[sixpence]

we are stuck in the basement for the summer due to construction and all we have is a piano down there

[Papist]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1344873447' post='2466918']
we are stuck in the basement for the summer due to construction and all we have is a piano down there
[/quote]
Great opportunity to learn chant.

[BG45]

What I find surprising, given this is Phatmass...is that no one in their rush to defend sacred music has bothered to bring up yet that the USCCB has no authority as an organization. The individual Bishops have authority over their dioceses, but collectively as a group, they do not. It's an organization whose purpose is to fundraise, provide information on Catholic teaching and current events, and to bring the Bishops together to discuss issues relevant to the faith.

/at least this has always been my understanding of the USCCB

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1344823444' post='2466672']
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4]Also, this is pertinent (in reference to "as laid down in..."):[/size][/font]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4]"[i][b]D) Norms for adapting the Liturgy to the culture and traditions of peoples[/b][/i]
[color=#000000]37. Even in the liturgy, the Church has no wish to impose a rigid uniformity in matters which do not implicate the faith or the good of the whole community; rather does she respect and foster the genius and talents of the various races and peoples. Anything in these peoples' way of life which is not indissolubly bound up with superstition and error she studies with sympathy and, if possible, preserves intact. Sometimes in fact she admits such things into the liturgy itself, so long as they harmonize with its true and authentic spirit."[/color]

[color=#000000][color=#282828]For some context, so as to avoid proof-texting, the section you quoted above is immediately preceded by this:[/color][/color][/size][/font]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4][color=#000000][color=#282828]"[/color]119. In certain parts of the world, especially mission lands, there are peoples who have their own musical traditions, and these play a great part in their religious and social life. For this reason due importance is to be attached to their music, [b]and a suitable place is to be given to it, [/b]not only in forming their attitude toward religion, but also in adapting worship to their native genius, as indicated in Art. 39 and 40.[/color]
[color=#000000]Therefore, when missionaries are being given training in music, every effort should be made to see that they become competent in promoting the traditional music of these peoples, both in schools and in sacred services, as far as may be practicable."[/color]

[color=#000000]It's clear, then, that this part of the document is not referring to mostly white Catholic parishes in suburban America, but rather to the Church in partibus infidelium, where they may already have an existing liturgical tradition that can be partially or wholly synthesized into the Latin liturgy. Unfortunately for people who wish otherwise, mostly white Catholic parishes in suburban America are neither in mission lands, nor do they have an organic sacred musical heritage outside of the Church and her chant-based musical culture.[/color]

[color=#000000]The Church making allowances for native Africans to keep some of their musical culture does not give people the right to have P&W concerts in Mass. [/color][/size][/font]
[/quote] for the bolded part, could this be more in reference to using native music outside the Mass instead of during? Honest question, as just from reading that little bit it doesn't seem to say that native music should be used during Mass, but I could also be missing something, given that I'm not an expert.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='LaPetiteSoeur' timestamp='1344870228' post='2466883']
I'd rather have a piano than a Hammond organ any day. Hammonds are awful (think funeral home/home organs without pipes). Organs are also really expensive to keep up, and some parishes don't have the funds to fix their organ (it took my parish some 10 years to raise enough money to fix our 107 year old organ), and so pianos are necessary.
[/quote]
You're about half right. Pipe organs are expensive, and for a small or poor parish, may be cost prohibitive. However, your logic reads something like, "if you get a flat tire, well, you can't drive with a flat tire, so you need to buy a new car." There are many good alternatives to pipe organs that nearly every parishioner and even a lot of organists would be unable to distinguish on sound alone.
Check these:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8QH_rSnL7s"]Allen Organs[/url]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdzIxK_xzeA"]Rodgers Organs[/url]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6MPquYmRnI[/media]

All of these are completely digital organs. That means no maintenance at all, and to put in a completely decked out system with the last one (the Hauptwerk) couldn't cost more than $20 or 30,000. That's 50 to 75% of the cheapest Baldwin grand piano or comprable in price to most decent Baldwin baby grands (and with a piano, you've still got to perform maintenance on it).

As an organist, digital organs are not my favorite, but they still serve the purpose that is intended by the Church, so in many cases, it is the most acceptable alternative.

There's a wide spectrum between the Mormon Tabernacle organ and grandma's Hammond.

Edited August 13, 2012 by USAirwaysIHS

[Lil Red]

[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1344873941' post='2466925']
What I find surprising, given this is Phatmass...is that no one in their rush to defend sacred music has bothered to bring up yet that the USCCB has no authority as an organization. The individual Bishops have authority over their dioceses, but collectively as a group, they do not. It's an organization whose purpose is to fundraise, provide information on Catholic teaching and current events, and to bring the Bishops together to discuss issues relevant to the faith.

/at least this has always been my understanding of the USCCB
[/quote]
you beat me to it

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1344873941' post='2466925']
What I find surprising, given this is Phatmass...is that no one in their rush to defend sacred music has bothered to bring up yet that the USCCB has no authority as an organization. The individual Bishops have authority over their dioceses, but collectively as a group, they do not. It's an organization whose purpose is to fundraise, provide information on Catholic teaching and current events, and to bring the Bishops together to discuss issues relevant to the faith.

/at least this has always been my understanding of the USCCB
[/quote]
I was under the impression that KofC kind of touched on this in his first post in this thread, albeit in a much more minimalistic way.

[franciscanheart]

You people are ridiculous.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1344876324' post='2466958']
You people are ridiculous.
[/quote]

speak for yourself.

[BG45]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1344875146' post='2466942']
you beat me to it
[/quote]
I guess KofC kinda beat both of us now that it's pointed out to me below lol. But usually by this point if someone invokes them, there's some sort of big post about how they're not a "governing body" so to speak...and even though the individual Bishops have authority, they can't really contradict the Church's teachings (licitly at least).

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1344875216' post='2466943']
I was under the impression that KofC kind of touched on this in his first post in this thread, albeit in a much more minimalistic way.
[/quote]

...and that's what I get for skimming. You're right!

[Slappo]

If we get rid of guitars and piano's can we at least keep the wymyn priestesses ordination tambourines?

[url="http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/11/fishwrap-promotes-a-sermon-by-a-wywymprystess/"]http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/11/fishwrap-promotes-a-sermon-by-a-wywymprystess/[/url]

Edited August 13, 2012 by Slappo

[Selah]

In Pittsburgh they have polka masses. Mostly because everyone is Polish, I guess.

[Basilisa Marie]

It seems to me like the whole point of allowing or not allowing certain instruments is to promote a worshipful atmosphere. Chant has pride of place, not only because of its rich history in our tradition but because you don't need special equipment and everyone can do it. It was my understanding that the pipe organ was originally prized because it sounded like chant. Instruments that imitate the human voice seem to be prized over ones that don't (organ > drumset). Furthermore, it would seem like you'd want to eliminate music that sounds more like performing than worshiping. It's totally possible for a folk choir with a guitar to be more conducive to worship than an organist that is there to show off how many ridiculously complex runs he can do, to the point where it upstages everything else that is going on during the liturgy. More often than not, though, the opposite tends to be true. I don't think the problem is with guitars, the problem is with musicians that are more concerned with performing than worship.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1344882047' post='2467023']
If we get rid of guitars and piano's can we at least keep the wymyn priestesses ordination tambourines?
[/quote]

This sounds like a fair and equitable trade.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='the171' timestamp='1344835970' post='2466761']
GET RID[s]E[/s] OF PIANOS. NOW! Guitars and all the like. NOW!
[/quote]

While we are at it, get rid of really loud old ladies that think they can sing but can't. Talk about a cacophony of voices....

Get rid of music altogether too ... let's all just be silent throughout the Mass. No responses. That way, those that want to sleep can sleep quite peacefully. We really shouldn't disturb their beauty rest.