Voter Id Laws: A Fake Solution To A Fake Problem

[Socrates]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1347977811' post='2483715']
I haven't looked into this issue, but I'm inclined to be against calls for more IDs for the simple fact that it reinforces the government's control over politics and weakens the bonds of democracy. It's strange to me that at a time when Republicans are calling for government to go away, they're also calling for for more people to be entered into a central database so they can be easily scanned and identified and be required to justify themselves before this database.

Maybe it's just as well that the government takes more control here. If after 200 years of democracy we can't resolve these kinds of issues in ways other than strengthening a massive state power, then maybe the idea of democracy is dead anyway.

Sorry if I've gone off on a Winchester tangent.
[/quote]
To me, all the furor of Democrats over requiring a photo ID for voting is highly suspicious, to say the least. As far as I know, most Dems don't have any problem with driver's licenses or library cards.

(Photo ID is already required for lots of things. I don't think having a photo ID in itself gives government any vast additional control over me.)

It's probably because I'm an Evil Statist, but I don't see why it's such a big deal to ensure that the people voting in a given election are actually citizens of that country/city/district/etc.

To use a reductio ad absurdum argument, if we really wanted to go "small government"with this, then we should just eliminate all checks on who enters any voting booth, and just let anyone who wants to stroll in and vote without asking any questions.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Socrates

[4588686]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1348450853' post='2485828']
To me, all the furor of Democrats over requiring a photo ID for voting is highly suspicious, to say the least. As far as I know, most Dems don't have any problem with driver's licenses or library cards.[/QUOTE]

Except the many, many voters who do. I've already cited this.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1348450853' post='2485828']
To me, all the furor of Democrats over requiring a photo ID for voting is highly suspicious, to say the least. As far as I know, most Dems don't have any problem with driver's licenses or library cards.
[/quote]

Except driving or libraries are not constitutionally recognized rights. Whereas voting is.

Same reason many shooters dont consider a driving license and a gun license to be legally comparable.

[hotpink]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1348455321' post='2485855']
Except driving or libraries are not constitutionally recognized rights. Whereas voting is.

Same reason many shooters dont consider a driving license and a gun license to be legally comparable.
[/quote]

Voting is a right. But that video is a lie...78% of young black males don't have any photo id? Are you CRAZY? Of course they do! They use it to buy beer and cigarettes and to drive.

Oh wait...no they're good black men they're in school and work.

So...78% of black males live on nothing, no welfare, no vices, never get a cold and hold no jobs and never attend school?

Yeah. Right.

[4588686]

[quote name='hotpink' timestamp='1348530606' post='2486215']
Voting is a right. But that video is a lie...78% of young black males don't have any photo id? Are you CRAZY? Of course they do! They use it to buy beer and cigarettes and to drive.

Oh wait...no they're good black men they're in school and work.

So...78% of black males live on nothing, no welfare, no vices, never get a cold and hold no jobs and never attend school?

Yeah. Right.
[/quote]


Um. What video are you talking about?

[hotpink]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1348530698' post='2486216']
Um. What video are you talking about?
[/quote]

The one on the first page

[4588686]

[quote name='hotpink' timestamp='1348530921' post='2486219']
The one on the first page
[/quote]

That said 78% of black men ages 18-24 in Wisconsin.

[url="http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/progressive-movement/report/2012/04/04/11380/voter-suppression-101/"]http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/progressive-movement/report/2012/04/04/11380/voter-suppression-101/[/url]


It's really not that astounding. Particularly if you live in city you really don't need driver's licence to get around.

I currently don't have a driver's licence. I lost mine shortly after I got back from Bosnia. That was like 2 months ago.

[Jesus_lol]

A lot of my friends that age dont have a drivers license, and have never gone international travelling with a passport, etc, either.

[4588686]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6UWR0kSFcE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6UWR0kSFcE[/url]

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1348537634' post='2486287']
I currently don't have a driver's licence. [/quote]Thanks for not planning to vote!

[4588686]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1348576870' post='2486447']
Thanks for not planning to vote!
[/quote]

North Carolina doesn't currently have those laws.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1348537634' post='2486287']
I currently don't have a driver's licence. I lost mine shortly after I got back from Bosnia. That was like 2 months ago.
[/quote]


What's yer address? *dials NC state troopers*

[Era Might]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1348450853' post='2485828']
To me, all the furor of Democrats over requiring a photo ID for voting is highly suspicious, to say the least. As far as I know, most Dems don't have any problem with driver's licenses or library cards.

(Photo ID is already required for lots of things. I don't think having a photo ID in itself gives government any vast additional control over me.)

It's probably because I'm an Evil Statist, but I don't see why it's such a big deal to ensure that the people voting in a given election are actually citizens of that country/city/district/etc.

To use a reductio ad absurdum argument, if we really wanted to go "small government"with this, then we should just eliminate all checks on who enters any voting booth, and just let anyone who wants to stroll in and vote without asking any questions.
[/quote]
I'm not really in the "small government" crowd, I'm more in the "question the idea of paper identification" crowd. Of course you don't think an ID has any social implications...IDs are a part of our current social perception. We don't question them because we accept the underlying social constructs that IDs are part of.

But even within a given social construct, symbols can have very different implications depending on where you are in society (IDs are, after all, just symbols, just as credit cards have no meaning in themselves, they are just symbols of larger systems).

To use another example, what if the government required us to implant chips into our pinky finger, so we could be scanned and identified? There would be a lot of resistance to such a symbol gaining traction in society, but it's not fundamentally different from our current IDs. But after a while, as the policy is implemented, people get used to it. It becomes "normal," even "obvious." Why didn't we have this before? Of course this is what society needs, the reasoning goes.

My point being that symbols DO have social implications. Increasing stringency on imposing the symbol of identification has social / philosophical / historical implications. I'm not saying we can completely remove ourselves from our symbols...only saying that the public discussion needs to be aware that there are implications to such things. One's view on such a symbol, even in America, is going to differ among different segments of the country for whom the symbol has different implications. I know the American middle class thinks the world revolves around their conceptions of reality, but it doesn't...other people experience the world very differently, and imposed symbols have implications for their experience of the world.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Era Might

[kujo]

[quote name='hotpink' timestamp='1348530606' post='2486215']
Voting is a right. But that video is a lie...78% of young black males don't have any photo id? Are you CRAZY? Of course they do! They use it to buy beer and cigarettes and to drive.

Oh wait...no they're good black men they're in school and work.

So...78% of black males live on nothing, no welfare, no vices, never get a cold and hold no jobs and never attend school?

Yeah. Right.
[/quote]


I don't know you, and I don't participate on here often enough to determine whether you're a newbie or a troll or whatever, so I can't say with any degree of certainty that you are, or are not, legally insane.

But these yammerings....well, let's just say you ought to consider changing your username from "hotpink" to "hotmess"

[kujo]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1346731143' post='2478156']
Yet reading through it again, I would have preferred name calling to what he implied that I (and others) were saying-that people who can't get an ID are leeches or losers followed by calling me (and others) reprehensible and pathetic.
[/quote]

Wait for it...

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1346730056' post='2478151']
It's a red herring that US Citizens find it extremely hard to obtain ID or the requirement is an onerous burden. Seriously, if you can't get an ID that's required to get a job, attend college, buy beer, rent a car, buy antihistamines, pawn jewelry, or sell scap metal,[color=#ee82ee][size=6][u][i][b] then there probably isn't a big loss in not getting your opinion registered. [/b][/i][/u][/size][/color]
[/quote]

In fairness, you were probably typing when Anomaly posted this comment less than 20 minutes before you submitted yours. Or perhaps you didn't notice it--after all, I did increase the font size, and bold, italicize, underline and add pink lettering for dramatic effect.

Edited September 28, 2012 by kujo

[Anomaly]

For the record, I still hold the opinion that if you can't get any ID in today's society, I'm not that sorry you can't vote.
Just about all states require some sort of ID to vote, the voter registration card, or some other form of identification, such as a utility bill, bank statement, etc. The quest for photo ID's is trying to standardize requiements and provide some assurance to the citizenry that the votes were cast by REAL citizens.

[u]Unlike all other modern democracies[/u], the US does not maintain a National Data Base of eligible voters. You don't have to provide any ID to register to vote, just sign an affidavit like buying fireworks if Florida stating you will use them for agricultural purposes.
The States can all decide how each of them can validate and verify who are eligible voters. It's the States who have to make sure they are likely citizens, not felons, not dead, not registered multiple times, not aliens (legal or not), etc. and ensure that it's ONLY citizens that are voting.

We could go to a National Registry Of Citizenship maintained by the Federal Government, but in the US, we're free to participate or not participate in Society to what ever degree makes our boat float.

I'm also not a big fan of early voting and mail-in voting either, but I don't know how to practically accomodate military, students, travelers, and not-mobile-ederly without the system being used for the plain lazy. I like the idea of Voting Day being a Federal Holiday.

Voting is a right, but is a also a heavy responsibility as well. Some things are not all about ease and convenience, especially something as important as voting on our elected officials.

[abercius24]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346634323' post='2477711']
[url="http://www.npr.org/2012/02/14/146827471/study-1-8-million-dead-people-still-registered-to-vote"]http://www.npr.org/2...istered-to-vote[/url]
[/quote]

If there is a potential for significant fraud, then that must be addressed one way or another. Anything less is just asking for trouble. And ID is not necessarily a problem for people. Heck, we send our census takers to people's houses and not charge them for the information given! We could at the most send ID agents out to people's homes and given them the opportunity to apply for free at their door! There are options and possibilities to make this fair to everyone. But to leave a door open for fraud -- especially now that it is well-known -- is reckless!

[kujo]

How can you say that fraud ***could*** happen when it isn't happening, at least not in any statistically significant or coordinated way? Isn't the lack of evidence of a problem sort of evidence of the lack of a problem?

[MIKolbe]

this makes sense.

let's wait until some fraud happens.

[kujo]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1348859672' post='2487661']
this makes sense.

let's wait until some fraud happens.
[/quote]

Right.

Why should we fix something that isn't broken, particularly since the current plan to "fix" it will have the consequence--intended or otherwise-- of placing an additional burden in the way of legal citizens of this country? This plan smells of elderberries, so unless you can find one that doesn't smell of elderberries, I'm gonna have to say that fixing stuff that ain't broken shouldn't be high on the list of priorities.