Nihil Obstat Posted May 29, 2013 Posted May 29, 2013 So just recently Fisheaters has faced some scandal, and lost several members over it. A few days ago, a man 'came out' as being a make to female transsexual. He was supported by several people including, interestingly, the webmaster, Vox. Part of the pro argument deals with an alleged secret Vatican letter to bishops which, again allegedly, approves of 'gender reassignment' surgery in some cases, provided the person in question never attempts to marry, take religious vows, or be ordained. The other main argument seems to be that the brain's 'gender' can in some cases not match the chromosomal gender. Frankly those arguments strike me as tenuous at best. If Dust or Roamin' gives the go-ahead I can post a couple links for context, but it is not hard to find for yourself anyway. Since we have been discussing homosexuality lately, I am wondering what the reaction around here is.
Not The Philosopher Posted May 29, 2013 Posted May 29, 2013 The sort of mind/body dualism presupposed by gender reassignment seems pretty foreign to the Judeo-Christian understanding of our embodied existence. I don't think it's the appropriate response. Offering advice to people who do suffer from gender identity issues of this sort is a little out of my league though. Strange that this should happen at Fisheaters, of all places.
Nihil Obstat Posted May 29, 2013 Author Posted May 29, 2013 Strange that this should happen at Fisheaters, of all places. One would think so.
CatholicsAreKewl Posted May 29, 2013 Posted May 29, 2013 (edited) Transsexual Pescatarians? Edited May 29, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl
arfink Posted May 30, 2013 Posted May 30, 2013 (edited) So just recently Fisheaters has faced some scandal, and lost several members over it. A few days ago, a man 'came out' as being a make to female transsexual. He was supported by several people including, interestingly, the webmaster, Vox. Part of the pro argument deals with an alleged secret Vatican letter to bishops which, again allegedly, approves of 'gender reassignment' surgery in some cases, provided the person in question never attempts to marry, take religious vows, or be ordained. The other main argument seems to be that the brain's 'gender' can in some cases not match the chromosomal gender. Frankly those arguments strike me as tenuous at best. If Dust or Roamin' gives the go-ahead I can post a couple links for context, but it is not hard to find for yourself anyway. Since we have been discussing homosexuality lately, I am wondering what the reaction around here is. Something about this sounds fishy to me, and it's not the name. :P I don't think transsexuality is very well understood by anyone at all, and last I checked, there aren't any Church documents specifically about it. I'd be willing to bet the Church would take the same kind of stance it does on eunuchs, since functionally (assuming they have had sex selection surgery) it's the same thing, just coupled with a cosmetic surgery after the fact. Edited May 30, 2013 by arfink
Nihil Obstat Posted May 30, 2013 Author Posted May 30, 2013 Something about this sounds fishy to me, and it's not the name. :P I don't think transsexuality is very well understood by anyone at all, and last I checked, there aren't any Church documents specifically about it. I'd be willing to bet the Church would take the same kind of stance it does on eunuchs, since functionally (assuming they have had sex selection surgery) it's the same thing, just coupled with a cosmetic surgery after the fact. It is certainly strange. And I agree with your assessment, which is why I do not trust that this alleged secret document actually exists.
Nihil Obstat Posted May 30, 2013 Author Posted May 30, 2013 There are forums aside from Phatmass? Ikr???
Basilisa Marie Posted May 30, 2013 Posted May 30, 2013 Wow, I'm surprised something like that happened on Fish Eaters, much less that people were supportive. It seems that any claims of any "secret" Vatican letters to anyone are a really bad foundation for any argument. Sounds too gnostic to me. As far as I know, the Church doesn't have any documents acknowledging that transsexual people exist, let alone what the Church's position is (if I'm wrong, please someone let me know). Obviously, trans* persons have to be treated with dignity just like any other. Doesn't the Church teach that our souls are gendered? Would that be an issue to consider when talking about trans* issues? It seems to me that the Church would probably categorize most gender assignment surgery as mutilation, not medical care...though I'm not entirely sure either way. But there are a lot of individual cases that are very different from each other. Cases where a person doesn't physically express one gender or the other seem to be different from people who completely physically express one sex and want to change to the other.
Nihil Obstat Posted May 30, 2013 Author Posted May 30, 2013 Wow, I'm surprised something like that happened on Fish Eaters, much less that people were supportive. It seems that any claims of any "secret" Vatican letters to anyone are a really bad foundation for any argument. Sounds too gnostic to me. As far as I know, the Church doesn't have any documents acknowledging that transsexual people exist, let alone what the Church's position is (if I'm wrong, please someone let me know). Obviously, trans* persons have to be treated with dignity just like any other. Doesn't the Church teach that our souls are gendered? Would that be an issue to consider when talking about trans* issues? It seems to me that the Church would probably categorize most gender assignment surgery as mutilation, not medical care...though I'm not entirely sure either way. But there are a lot of individual cases that are very different from each other. Cases where a person doesn't physically express one gender or the other seem to be different from people who completely physically express one sex and want to change to the other. I do think souls have gender. And I agree with the rest. :)
Basilisa Marie Posted May 30, 2013 Posted May 30, 2013 I do think souls have gender. And I agree with the rest. :) Wouldn't the existence of trans* persons, especially ones that believe their mind is one gender and their body is another, help support the idea that souls are indeed gendered? Seems reasonable to me. But in truth I haven't thought it through completely, so that statement might be wildly offensive to some people (can you tell I go to school with feminist theologians? haha).
PhuturePriest Posted May 30, 2013 Posted May 30, 2013 Wouldn't the existence of trans* persons, especially ones that believe their mind is one gender and their body is another, help support the idea that souls are indeed gendered? Seems reasonable to me. But in truth I haven't thought it through completely, so that statement might be wildly offensive to some people (can you tell I go to school with feminist theologians? haha). I like the * every time you say trans*. It's like it's a forbidden word to say or something. :P
Nihil Obstat Posted May 30, 2013 Author Posted May 30, 2013 Wouldn't the existence of trans* persons, especially ones that believe their mind is one gender and their body is another, help support the idea that souls are indeed gendered? Seems reasonable to me. But in truth I haven't thought it through completely, so that statement might be wildly offensive to some people (can you tell I go to school with feminist theologians? haha). Possibly, but I think not necessarily. I had not thought about it that way.
Basilisa Marie Posted May 30, 2013 Posted May 30, 2013 I like the * every time you say trans*. It's like it's a forbidden word to say or something. :P Haha. The asterisk is what you put in a computer search box to include all "endings" for the word, so the trans* community adopted it as shorthand to refer to transgendered, transsexual, etc, basically anyone who isn't a man in a man's body or a woman in a woman's body. So that way people know you're talking about everyone in the group, not just transgendered or whatever subgroup.
PhuturePriest Posted May 30, 2013 Posted May 30, 2013 Haha. The asterisk is what you put in a computer search box to include all "endings" for the word, so the trans* community adopted it as shorthand to refer to transgendered, transsexual, etc, basically anyone who isn't a man in a man's body or a woman in a woman's body. So that way people know you're talking about everyone in the group, not just transgendered or whatever subgroup. I've learned two things today. The first was that house phones don't disconnect if the power goes off, and the second is this. I feel so much smarter. :P
Nihil Obstat Posted May 30, 2013 Author Posted May 30, 2013 Is he pretty decent looking? You know k d lang?
Lil Red Posted May 30, 2013 Posted May 30, 2013 Haha. The asterisk is what you put in a computer search box to include all "endings" for the word, so the trans* community adopted it as shorthand to refer to transgendered, transsexual, etc, basically anyone who isn't a man in a man's body or a woman in a woman's body. So that way people know you're talking about everyone in the group, not just transgendered or whatever subgroup. i didn't know this.
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