Great/grate Veils Of The Discalced Carmelite Nuns

July 13, 2013

In case she doesn't see this, she was in neither, but a new forming cloistered community in France dedicated to the Sacred Heart (which doesn't exist anymore) She has mentioned this other times on the phorum (otherwise I wouldn't post this).

What is the name of the community? Why are they extinct? Who was the Founder / Foundress?

July 13, 2013

What is the name of the community? Why are they extinct? Who was the Founder / Foundress?

I don't know but that would be something I personally wouldn't share on an online forum. You can ask maximillion though.

July 13, 2013

I don't know but that would be something I personally wouldn't share on an online forum. You can ask maximillion though.

Oh, sorry!

I hope she is reading this and will PM me. It is interesting....

July 13, 2013

I love the great veil, Buffalo uses them still, good for them, so I would think also Alexandria and Brooklyn would too.

Would the JMJ Carmel's use them?

You mean they still wore a veil that covers the entire face and falls down to the chest?

Buffalo, Alexandria & Brooklyn have a very large veil they still wear, although they do not wear it over their faces down to the chest anymore. I am not sure if they call this large veil the great veil still, but possibly.

I believe this is the veil they wear when they visit with people in the parlor, although again, they do not cover their entire faces with it. I know they would also wear this veil when they go out, like when they are making a new foundation. I have seen a picture from a newsletter of them from the back when they were founding Brooklyn and also a bunch of pictures in a magazine when they founded Alexandria. They wore this very large veil. But for Holy Mass they have the smaller Communion veil they doesn't fall in big folds like this in the back. Both of these veils have a flap that can be pulled down to cover part of the face.

For the JMJ Carmels, I have never seen them wear this large veil with the folds at the back as the great veil was, but only a more streamline one. At the enclosure ceremony in Elysburg they wore this one pictured below. I have heard they have two different outer veils, one for visiting in the parlor and then the Communion veil. But again, I am pretty sure they don't have this very large veil that falls on the back in a folds as Buffalo, Brooklyn & Alexandria do, or at least they don't wear them at occasions like making a foundation.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28378419@N03/sets/72157622233735714/

My goodness, so many posts today on details about Carmel not necessary for our salvation I think everyone else on VS are rolling their eyes, or getting a headache at least, oh well. sorry!

July 13, 2013

Let them roll their eyes!

July 13, 2013

pictures from the Rubio, Venezuela Carmel (1990) where they are wearing the very large veils with the folds at a Solemn Profession ~ https://plus.google.com/photos/104536453016555060669/albums/5786200923789335441?banner=pwa I have seen pictures from a Solemn Profession at Valparaiso (which were quickly taken offline a few years back) and they definitely did not have this very large veil, while again, Buffalo, Brooklyn & Alexandria do.

July 13, 2013

Do they call this large veil as Grate/Great Veil?

As per observation, the only Carmels wearing the old, Grate/Great Veils are the Carmels (Mother and Daughter foundations) founded by Archbishop Lefebvre's blood sister, Mother Christiane - which can be trace from French line Carmels and one in the USA in Colorado Springs which is from Spanish/Mexican origin. These Carmels pulls down their Grate/Great Veil down to their chests.

July 13, 2013

Do they call this large veil as Grate/Great Veil?

That I don't know. Would have to ask. I'll let you know if I find out.

July 13, 2013

That I don't know. Would have to ask. I'll let you know if I find out.

Thanks, Chiqui!

July 13, 2013

I've never heard them called 'grate' veils -- I think it was a typo that has taken on a new life. ;) I've always heard and seen them referred to as 'great veils'.

If the only ones using them are the ones you mentioned, I think it is fair to say that the current OCDs aren't using them. Those ladies, while I am sure well-intended, are technically not in Communion with us, unless something has changed...

One of the former prioresses at Cristo Rey (who just passed away on Pentecost this year, and was one of the holiest people I have ever met!) told me she was VERY glad tht they had done away with the face veil. She felt they were unsafe, even though they may have been 'filmy'. She told me at one point when they were still worn, she had been sent around with a workman who was working inside the enclosure. (She was one of the few truly bilingual sisters, and was very much in the forefront of the construction of the Cristo Rey monastery for that reason in the 1950s.) She said that she had an 'odd feeling' about him while she accompanied him with the hand bell (let me know if you don't understand that reference), although he was verbally pleasant enough. She couldn't see too much through that veil... but she accompanied him as he moved through the house. After he had left, still feeling something just wasn't right, she went back and found he had left open bowls of acid all over the place.

She had been unable to see him doing it through the veil.

Sometimes there really are practical reasons for re-considering some of those customs....

The Cristo Rey Nuns and the Dallas Nuns are both still wearing the 'communion veil' when in the parlor.

Edited July 13, 2013 by AnneLine

July 13, 2013

I've never heard them called 'grate' veils -- I think it was a typo that has taken on a new life. ;) I've always heard and seen them referred to as 'great veils'.

If the only ones using them are the ones you mentioned, I think it is fair to say that the current OCDs aren't using them. Those ladies, while I am sure well-intended, are technically not in Communion with us, unless something has changed...

One of the former prioresses at Cristo Rey (who just passed away on Pentecost this year, and was one of the holiest people I have ever met!) told me she was VERY glad tht they had done away with the face veil. She felt they were unsafe, even though they may have been 'filmy'. She told me at one point when they were still worn, she had been sent around with a workman who was working inside the enclosure. (She was one of the few truly bilingual sisters, and was very much in the forefront of the construction of the Cristo Rey monastery for that reason in the 1950s.) She said that she had an 'odd feeling' about him while she accompanied him with the hand bell (let me know if you don't understand that reference), although he was verbally pleasant enough. She couldn't see too much through that veil... but she accompanied him as he moved through the house. After he had left, still feeling something just wasn't right, she went back and found he had left open bowls of acid all over the place.

She had been unable to see him doing it through the veil.

Sometimes there really are practical reasons for re-considering some of those customs....

The Cristo Rey Nuns and the Dallas Nuns are both still wearing the 'communion veil' when in the parlor.

Its actually not a typo error since the information came from a Mother Prioress who had an experience wearing the Grate Veil which is connected to the word grating. They are were also being referred to as Parlor/Parlour Veil.

I personally love this huge veil but people nowadays cannot understand if Nuns are veiled and they find it scary.....

July 13, 2013

Hmmm... then... maybe the typo went the other way. Obviously could refer to the grating/grillework.... perhaps the English-speaking Carmels made the sound-alike switch... and it stuck. Who knows?

July 13, 2013

Hmmm... then... maybe the typo went the other way. Obviously could refer to the grating/grillework.... perhaps the English-speaking Carmels made the sound-alike switch... and it stuck. Who knows?

Probably..... I think it was an Australian Prioress who used the term. I'll check....

July 14, 2013

Buffalo had the "Great Veil" which they were still using when I was there. I thought it was beautiful. I would think their two foundations in Alexandria and Brooklyn still have it. I can't imagine why they would do away with it.

Inperpetuity, I'm moving your comment to this thread since we were just discussing this earlier today. Do you remember if Buffalo specifically called it the Great Veil?

That is interesting what you are discussing above AL and Gracian, about the terms. It probably did start out as one and in the English language, became the other. I remember Indwelling who was in the old Brooklyn Carmel calling it Great Veil.

Buffalo, Alexandria & Brooklyn have a very large veil they still wear, although they do not wear it over their faces down to the chest anymore. I am not sure if they call this large veil the great veil still, but possibly.

I believe this is the veil they wear when they visit with people in the parlor, although again, they do not cover their entire faces with it. I know they would also wear this veil when they go out, like when they are making a new foundation. I have seen a picture from a newsletter of them from the back when they were founding Brooklyn and also a bunch of pictures in a magazine when they founded Alexandria. They wore this very large veil. But for Holy Mass they have the smaller Communion veil they doesn't fall in big folds like this in the back. Both of these veils have a flap that can be pulled down to cover part of the face.

For the JMJ Carmels, I have never seen them wear this large veil with the folds at the back as the great veil was, but only a more streamline one. At the enclosure ceremony in Elysburg they wore this one pictured below. I have heard they have two different outer veils, one for visiting in the parlor and then the Communion veil. But again, I am pretty sure they don't have this very large veil that falls on the back in a folds as Buffalo, Brooklyn & Alexandria do, or at least they don't wear them at occasions like making a foundation.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28378419@N03/sets/72157622233735714/

My goodness, so many posts today on details about Carmel not necessary for our salvation I think everyone else on VS are rolling their eyes, or getting a headache at least, oh well. sorry!

To correct myself here, I looked through that magazine again and see that the Alexandria nuns were wearing a simpler large veil like these Elysburg nuns were wearing for their Enclosure Ceremony too.

But for Brooklyn, it was the larger veils that fold over in the back. I know Brooklyn's customs are especially Spain Spanish, so it might be connected with that. But for sure Buffalo also wears the larger/folds in the back/very Spanish looking veil too (which I believe is the Great Veil, just without wearing it entirely over the face anymore)

July 14, 2013

Oh well. Whether they still still wear the great veil or communion veil, fact still remains that they no longer cover their entire face with them, a practice still in place in some US Carmels.

However, does Carmels in Europe do the same? Or they still cover their entire faces with the great veil.

Oh, I remember now, some calls them Grand Veil too!

Gracian

July 17, 2013

Interesting thread! :)

July 21, 2013

I recently got a copy of "Carmel: Its History, Spirit, and Saints" compiled by The Discalced Carmelites of Boston and Santa Clare, published in 1927.

It says that Pope Urban IV made the regulation that in all monasteries, each grate should be armed with points of iron.

St. Charles of Borromeo, during the Council of Milan, approved and generalized the use of double grate as ordained by St. Francis of Paula for his religious and even designated the distance which should separate one from another. He also wished the Religious to have their faces covered with a veil before persons from without, who should be obliged to enter into the cloister.

Edited July 21, 2013 by graciandelamadrededios

October 8, 2013

The Conceptionist Nuns version of Enclosure Veil during the time of St. Beatriz de Silva:

rosto+com+o+ve%C3%BA.jpg

October 8, 2013

Let them roll their eyes!

Yes, Gracian and Chiqui...there are many of us on VS who appreciate the knowledge base,

research, photos and personal experience of those who are familiar with all-things-Carmelite!

It is a joy (and so interesting) to read such posts! Deo Gratias...

October 8, 2013

Now, I wonder where Chiqui is?

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