Great/grate Veils Of The Discalced Carmelite Nuns

[graciandelamadrededios]

I personally love the grate veils though, in the modern times, it seems impractical. 

 

 

[graciandelamadrededios]

 

Enclosure Veil of the Religious Victims  of the Sacred Heart
 

[graciandelamadrededios]

PAPER OF EXACTIONS

OF THE

Discalced Carmelite Nuns

OF THE ORDER OF

OUR LADY OF MOUNT CARMEL

taken from

the traditions of our Spanish Mothers and Foundresses.

 

When they have to see the doctor, they should have their great veil lowered and not raise it until they are told to do so, drawing it down again dir­ectly after, but when they have received Extreme Unction, they usually only wear the little veil. They only speak to the doctor when the Mother Prioress, or the Sub-prioress, and in their absence, the Infirmarian tells them to do so; the latter will take care to be beforehand with this permission as soon as the doctor questions them. They should edify him by their patience and moderation, con­tenting themselves with saying what he wishes to know, without showing any eagerness for the remedies which are pleasing to nature, or aversion for those of which it is in dread.

 

[graciandelamadrededios]

Carmelita descalza del Monasterio del Carmen de la Concepción, Cuenca, Ecuador.

***Its possible that the nuns are still wearing the great veil til this day????

 

 

 

 

 

 

Carmelita descalza del Monasterio del Carmen de la Concepción, Cuenca, Ecuador.

***Its possible that the nuns are still wearing the great veil til this day????

 

Capuchinas de Aguascalientes, Mexico

***This the my first time to see a very large and long enclosure veil!!

 

 

 

 

[Teresita]

On ‎2‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 6:45 PM, graciandelamadrededios said:

I personally love the grate veils though, in the modern times, it seems impractical. 

Gracian, same here, there is something so beautiful and yet so mysterious about it, reminds me of the words of religious profession in certain orders, "He has set His seal upon my face, that I may admit no other lover but Him."

Thanks for the beautiful photos!

 

 

 

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

The truth of the matter is that the great veil is from the Muslim influence on Spain. We used to have our veil front come down as it was pinned so that it would cover half the face. It was worn this way on retreat days and going up to the grille, dealing with non-family in the parlor, but not with the family. It was a "modern" influence on Dominican Nuns probably influenced by Carmelites. 

 

[Pia Jesu]

Just a side note...Maronite hermit monk St. Charbel Makhlouf (1828-1898) reportedly never raised his eyes from the ground and his face was shrouded by a cloak--unless his gaze was on the Eucharist!  Thus, the symbolism of veiling (particularly the use of a grate veil) may be quite (spiritually) lofty!  Rather than keeping the person apart from outside or external influences or contacts, it might well be seen as reflective of the power of God--within the wearer.
The metaphor of the "veil being lifted" at death or during moments of contemplative prayer suggests this.  One of the issues here, of course, is if the individual chooses to wear one--or is forced to do so. 

[reminiscere]

I wonder if St. Teresa of Avila instituted the great/grate veil for her Discalced Reform.

Gracian - in any case I know of one U.S. monastery which still uses it. I think it's a safe bet that their foundations use it as well. 

[truthfinder]

15 hours ago, Sr Mary Catharine OP said:

The truth of the matter is that the great veil is from the Muslim influence on Spain. We used to have our veil front come down as it was pinned so that it would cover half the face. It was worn this way on retreat days and going up to the grille, dealing with non-family in the parlor, but not with the family. It was a "modern" influence on Dominican Nuns probably influenced by Carmelites. 

 

I seem to remember reading that some medieval nuns did wear a face veil c.12th century.  If what you're saying about the Muslim influence, which I've never come across before, it certainly did spread fast because by the 1600s nuns in teaching convents were wearing them as well. 

[Chiquitunga]

On June 16, 2016 at 2:59 PM, graciandelamadrededios said:

Carmelita descalza del Monasterio del Carmen de la Concepción, Cuenca, Ecuador.

***Its possible that the nuns are still wearing the great veil til this day???

Gracian, are you sure this is from Cuenca, Ecuador? There is no Monasterio del Carmen de la Concepción I can find there, unless this is one outside the Church or the Order. There are two Carmels in Cuenca, one of the Asunción, the other of San Jose.

http://www.ocd.pcn.net/ocd/n2_ecuador.htm

http://www.revistavance.com/atractivos-turisticos-de-cuenca.html?sobi2Task=sobi2Details&catid=12&sobi2Id=11

http://carmelitascuenca.org

time to be detectives  

Ps I see it's posted on this forum as such, http://liturgia.mforos.mobi/1699114/8503008-carmelitas-descalzas/?pag=3#112993906 who knows how accurate that is though.

they have the picture of jpii though so we know at least they aren't sedevacantist 

[Chiquitunga]

Could just be also a typo on the mystery of Our Lady the Carmel is named after, Asunción or Concepción.

by the way, some pictures of the Asunción Carmel, http://www.elmercurio.com.ec/440338-el-carmen-guarda-fe-historia-y-arte/#.V2bf4_RHbCQ

It looks similar to Carmen Alto in Quito which they were founded from - but interesting how it says on the outside of their chapel, Marian Sanctuary. I might be mistaken but I think that's a special designation a place of Marian devotion can receive from a bishop. That would be interesting if the public chapel of this Carmel received that. Reminds me of how the public chapel of the Carmel in Buffalo, NY is a National Shrine of St. Therese. I can't think of any other Carmels that are Marian Sanctuaries or National Shrines. Neat 

Edited June 19, 2016 by Chiquitunga

[graciandelamadrededios]

On 6/17/2016 at 8:43 PM, reminiscere said:

I wonder if St. Teresa of Avila instituted the great/grate veil for her Discalced Reform.

Gracian - in any case I know of one U.S. monastery which still uses it. I think it's a safe bet that their foundations use it as well. 

Yes, St. Teresa did just that and more.

The reform of St. Teresa was her reaction to the lifestyle she experienced in the Incarnation.

The monastery where St. Teresa entered was a Beaterio dedicated to St. Mary of the Incarnation founded by Dona Elvira Gonzales.  The community eventually petitioned the Provincial that Incarnation be admitted into the Second Order.  The "Beatas" adopted a form of life which contains the features of a convent but retaining the principal features of a Beaterio.  They have noviate and recitation of the Divine Office in common but the Beatas can easily ask permission to leave the convent.  Class distinction was evident; the rich ladies being waited upon by a servant and lived in a suite of rooms.  Their poorer sisters lived in dormitories and most of the time, has to go home or go out to find food for them.  This was the state of the convent when Teresa entered and they have close to 200 Nuns living inside!

 
The rest is history where we can refer to the Constitutions of St. Teresa, limiting the number of Nuns in each house to 21, no common work room, rough brown frieze (horse blanket) for the habit and course linen for the toque, no extra pleats on the articles of the habit, alpargates for the footwear and wearing of Grate Veils, etc.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2016 by graciandelamadrededios

[graciandelamadrededios]

On 6/17/2016 at 7:15 AM, Sr Mary Catharine OP said:

The truth of the matter is that the great veil is from the Muslim influence on Spain. We used to have our veil front come down as it was pinned so that it would cover half the face. It was worn this way on retreat days and going up to the grille, dealing with non-family in the parlor, but not with the family. It was a "modern" influence on Dominican Nuns probably influenced by Carmelites. 

 

I emailed several Prioresses in the USA, Australia, UK, etc.  

One Prioress said it could be a Muslim influence in Spain.  

Another Prioress said: "In the days of St. Teresa, this was a very common practice and widely accepted as the norm since all of Europe was still predominately Catholic."

21 hours ago, Chiquitunga said:

Could just be also a typo on the mystery of Our Lady the Carmel is named after, Asunción or Concepción.

by the way, some pictures of the Asunción Carmel, http://www.elmercurio.com.ec/440338-el-carmen-guarda-fe-historia-y-arte/#.V2bf4_RHbCQ

It looks similar to Carmen Alto in Quito which they were founded from - but interesting how it says on the outside of their chapel, Marian Sanctuary. I might be mistaken but I think that's a special designation a place of Marian devotion can receive from a bishop. That would be interesting if the public chapel of this Carmel received that. Reminds me of how the public chapel of the Carmel in Buffalo, NY is a National Shrine of St. Therese. I can't think of any other Carmels that are Marian Sanctuaries or National Shrines. Neat 

Not so sure, Chiqui.  

I never thought any of the existing Carmels veils themselves this way.  A prioress of a 1990 Carmel said they pull their veils down to their eyes but not reaching the nose.

[graciandelamadrededios]

On 6/17/2016 at 8:43 PM, reminiscere said:

I wonder if St. Teresa of Avila instituted the great/grate veil for her Discalced Reform.

Gracian - in any case I know of one U.S. monastery which still uses it. I think it's a safe bet that their foundations use it as well. 

Can you share with us which Carmel????

[vee]

It would be interesting to try such a veil just to see, or not see!  I mentioned this type of veil to a nun who had worn it at one time and she said she didnt like it because the wearer couldnt see much of anything to the point of it being impractical.  Looking at the number of communities that dont use it anymore Im guessing she wasnt the only one who thought that way.  

[graciandelamadrededios]

18 minutes ago, vee said:

It would be interesting to try such a veil just to see, or not see!  I mentioned this type of veil to a nun who had worn it at one time and she said she didnt like it because the wearer couldnt see much of anything to the point of it being impractical.  Looking at the number of communities that dont use it anymore Im guessing she wasnt the only one who thought that way.  

It is very interesting to the point it has become a legend, at least here in the Philippines.  Until now, people still thinks that "monjas" or nuns cannot be seen by their family members; they can only see the fingers of nun's hands.  

 

[vee]

41 minutes ago, graciandelamadrededios said:

It is very interesting to the point it has become a legend, at least here in the Philippines.  Until now, people still thinks that "monjas" or nuns cannot be seen by their family members; they can only see the fingers of nun's hands.  

 

Thats funny!  Here, judging by my family and coworkers, most people dont even think nuns exist anymore let alone have strange ideas about them being hidden.  The community Im joining doesnt use the great veil anymore but part of me wishes they did just to see the reactions of my family if they ever visited.... I guess with family the custom was that the veil be lifted but if I had one and left it down I can see some family members being really upset!  "We came all the way here to visit you and we cant even see you?!?!!!"   Or someone might have a sense of humor and say " oh thats good,keeping your face covered is an improvement!"

[graciandelamadrededios]

2 hours ago, vee said:

Thats funny!  Here, judging by my family and coworkers, most people dont even think nuns exist anymore let alone have strange ideas about them being hidden.  The community Im joining doesnt use the great veil anymore but part of me wishes they did just to see the reactions of my family if they ever visited.... I guess with family the custom was that the veil be lifted but if I had one and left it down I can see some family members being really upset!  "We came all the way here to visit you and we cant even see you?!?!!!"   Or someone might have a sense of humor and say " oh thats good,keeping your face covered is an improvement!"

In the Philippines, we have religious and sometimes, nuns on the streets.  Its common scene.  Though, few congregations switched to wearing secular clothing.  Some still wears the habit sans the veil.

When I attended graduate school at the University of Santo Tomas in Manila, I can only count my courses where I don't have any Nun/Priest classmates.  Most of the time, I have veiled / with clerical collar classmates!

 

 

Edited June 20, 2016 by graciandelamadrededios

[vee]

On 6/20/2016 at 3:25 PM, graciandelamadrededios said:

In the Philippines, we have religious and sometimes, nuns on the streets.  Its common scene.  Though, few congregations switched to wearing secular clothing.  Some still wears the habit sans the veil.

When I attended graduate school at the University of Santo Tomas in Manila, I can only count my courses where I don't have any Nun/Priest classmates.  Most of the time, I have veiled / with clerical collar classmates!

 

I think its a blessing to have so many noticeable religious as a common thing.  You mentioned the University of Santo Tomas and coincidentally Id just come across the name while reading a history article.  Very sadly the article was about the Manila Massacre, however its nice to know that slowly things recovered and that the school still exists.

Oh I was going to ask, since the Philippines has many Carmels do any still retain the great veil?

[graciandelamadrededios]

1 hour ago, vee said:

I think its a blessing to have so many noticeable religious as a common thing.  You mentioned the University of Santo Tomas and coincidentally Id just come across the name while reading a history article.  Very sadly the article was about the Manila Massacre, however its nice to know that slowly things recovered and that the school still exists.

Oh I was going to ask, since the Philippines has many Carmels do any still retain the great veil?

Manila Massacre?  Which year?

None of the Carmels in the Philippines retained the usage of the great veils.  When I visited Manila Carmel, I was able to talk to the Prioresses and Nuns in the Parlor Grille sans spikes (the grille looks very old, and was painted dark brown) and they just wore the day veils - tucked under the scapular.