Great/grate Veils Of The Discalced Carmelite Nuns

[graciandelamadrededios]

Discalced Carmelite Nuns wearing the Grate Veils on the Parlour Grating circa 1958

 

Edited October 9, 2013 by graciandelamadrededios

[truthfinder]

I believe that is Mother Thomas who wrote My Beloved.  Normally, the curtain would have been pulled for a non-related male guest, but it wouldn't make for a very good picture in a book.

[inperpetuity]

I was working in the infirmary before I entered and the prioress came in and was wearing what she explained to me was the Great Veil.  She didn't spell it for me though so I don't know how they spell it, but it was very long and came down to almost her knees but it was folded back on her head.  She told me when it was used, but I don't remember.

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

I was working in the infirmary before I entered and the prioress came in and was wearing what she explained to me was the Great Veil.  She didn't spell it for me though so I don't know how they spell it, but it was very long and came down to almost her knees but it was folded back on her head.  She told me when it was used, but I don't remember.

 

I wonder if a worker came into the enclosure so that could be why she was wearing it? This is just a thought because in the Carmel I was in there was three veils. One called the day veil which was the one sewed on to the toque and in the back it was tucked down behind the Scapular. The other was the Communion veil; only worn for Holy Mass. The other was the speak room veil. This was the large one that was worn when we went to the speak room, and then when someone had to come into the enclosure (doctor or workmen) then Reverend Mother would wear this veil, and whoever else was with her (and it could only be another professed Sister, unless the doctor was coming to see a Sister who was still a white veil then she would have to put on her speak room veil also.). All white veils (novices and those in first vows) would not go to the area they came in (but we couldn't go to the areas where the professed could go anyways) and if they happened to be in the novitiate then we would just have to make sure that we would not be seen.

[inperpetuity]

Yes, I believe Buffalo has 3 as well as you describe, but she only did that once and she didn't have it over her face.  I was thinking about this and because they always referred to the grille and not the grate It didn't occur to me to ask how they spelled the great/grate veil,lol. I just assumed it was great because it was so long.

Edited October 9, 2013 by inperpetuity

[graciandelamadrededios]

Two American Prioresses (whose monasteries are from Spanish and French line) referred to the great veils as “grate veils" in their email reply to my inquiries.  Hence, I am most sure this is not just a spelling or typo error.

 

They further explained that these large veils were used when the grate (or grille) is open.

 

There are many terms used for these large veils among Carmelites – parlour veils, speak room veils, great veils, grate veils, enclosure veils, grand veils, etc.

 

As per New Zealand Carmelites – they stopped using the grate veils in the early 70s.

Edited October 15, 2013 by graciandelamadrededios

[AnneLine]

My suspicion is that the correct answer of which is the CORRECT choice among  'great' 'grate' 'enclosure' 'parlor' and all manner of other term for this veil, the answer might be, in honor of St. Therese, "I choose all" -- all those meanings and probably some we haven't thought of are the REAL meaning and name of that veil. ;)

 

It probably just varies from time and place to time and place!

[graciandelamadrededios]

Discalced Carmelite Nuns wearing the Grate Veils on the Parlour Grating circa 1958

 

 

 

This photo was taken by The Baltimore Sun, so I believe this was taken from the parlor of Baltimore Carmel.

 

I have a copy of the book My Beloved:The Story of a Carmelite Nun by Mother Catherine Thomas of the Divine Providence, D.C. - first edition - hardbound and the photos of grille on this book is different from the grille on this photo.

[graciandelamadrededios]

My suspicion is that the correct answer of which is the CORRECT choice among  'great' 'grate' 'enclosure' 'parlor' and all manner of other term for this veil, the answer might be, in honor of St. Therese, "I choose all" -- all those meanings and probably some we haven't thought of are the REAL meaning and name of that veil.  ;)

 

It probably just varies from time and place to time and place!

 

You are CORRECT, AnneLine!

 

The terms being used are not really legislated by the Order so each English-Speaking communities or non-English communities may call this large veil in various terminologies.

 

The Poor Clare Colettines refer to this large veil as enclosure veil.

[graciandelamadrededios]

Discalced Carmelite Nuns wearing the Grate Veils on the Parlour Grating circa 1958

 

 

WITH CORRECTIONS:

 

This photo was taken by The Baltimore Sun, so I believe this was taken from the parlor of Baltimore Carmel.

 

I have a copy of the book My Beloved:The Story of a Carmelite Nun by Mother Catherine Thomas of Divine Providence, D.C. - first edition - hardbound and the photos of grille on this book is different from the grille on this photo.

[graciandelamadrededios]

Photo from the Book: My Beloved

 

[Chiquitunga]

can't help myself, gotta post, I just saw this.. forgive me, no disrespect to anyone intended. Carmel on the mind.. of course  Happy New Year everyone!  

 

[Makarioi]

.     I love this thread and learn so much from you all. Happy New Year!!! 

[Yinepu Sanctimonialis]

Very interesting topic  I've always felt so close this fantastic and fascinated order and their outfit to me .. I find some beautiful pictures in the article affiliated with these fantastic sisters : http://www.theweek.co.uk/music/opera/58785/dialogue-des-carmelites-reviews-of-french-opera

[DominicanHeart]

This thread is so cool!! I just love the Carmelites!! 

[graciandelamadrededios]

Updates regarding Carmel of the Infant of Prague in Traverse City, MI:

Over the years of our monastery’s history, some simplifications to our traditional habit were introduced. In 2015, the 5th Centenary Year of the Birth of St. Teresa of Jesus, we decided to restore the distinctive elements of the original habit worn by our foundresses, to better express our Spanish-Mexican heritage, most notably the larger toque and gathered veil.

Note: You must be thrilled, Chiqui!

 

 

[Chiquitunga]

     http://carmeloftraversecity.org/more/about-this-website/

thanks for sharing that gracian!! 

and gracian you must be thrilled just to get another source from a Carmelite of the words they use to describe that veil 

[Marie Villalovos Smith]

I realize this is a long link but thought some might be interested in a letters to/from Edith Stein about the grate veil, Pax

https://books.google.com/books?id=eF2pPVvtRKUC&pg=PA353&lpg=PA353&dq=grate+or+great+veil&source=bl&ots=q2-XeBGPhj&sig=LRZflZMVCi3toH4el0lZl3o_Eg4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwij1_PG-ZXKAhVG7B4KHeXQCEcQ6AEIJTAB#v=onepage&q=grate%20or%20great%20veil&f=false

[nikita92]

On July 13, 2013 at 12:48:26 PM, graciandelamadrededios said:

Let them roll their eyes!

I agree!

[nikita92]

On July 13, 2013 at 12:43:46 PM, Chiquitunga said:

I love the great veil, Buffalo uses them still, good for them, so I would think also Alexandria and Brooklyn would too.

 

 

Would the JMJ Carmel's use them?

 

You mean they still wore a veil that covers the entire face and falls down to the chest?

 

Buffalo, Alexandria & Brooklyn have a very large veil they still wear, although they do not wear it over their faces down to the chest anymore. I am not sure if they call this large veil the great veil still, but possibly. 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe this is the veil they wear when they visit with people in the parlor, although again, they do not cover their entire faces with it. I know they would also wear this veil when they go out, like when they are making a new foundation. I have seen a picture from a newsletter of them from the back when they were founding Brooklyn and also a bunch of pictures in a magazine when they founded Alexandria. They wore this very large veil. But for Holy Mass they have the smaller Communion veil they doesn't fall in big folds like this in the back. Both of these veils have a flap that can be pulled down to cover part of the face.

 

For the JMJ Carmels, I have never seen them wear this large veil with the folds at the back as the great veil was, but only a more streamline one. At the enclosure ceremony in Elysburg they wore this one pictured below. I have heard they have two different outer veils, one for visiting in the parlor and then the Communion veil. But again, I am pretty sure they don't have this very large veil that falls on the back in a folds as Buffalo, Brooklyn & Alexandria do, or at least they don't wear them at occasions like making a foundation.

 

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28378419@N03/sets/72157622233735714/

 

 

My goodness, so many posts today on details about Carmel not necessary for our salvation  I think everyone else on VS are rolling their eyes, or getting a headache at least, oh well. sorry! 

 Comment on a long ago topic-  With all due respect.. if the interest of "veils" is shared by many..what is the harm?

I may be to "Mature" to enter 90% of religious communities.. But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy "Learning" about veils and the communities that (have) utilized certain types!