Calling Oneself Catholic While Rejecting Church Teaching

[Perigrina]

I post this as an ex-Catholic.
I think people call themselves Catholic when they appear to disagree in how to apply fundamental principles. For example, how to apply charity when faced with loving the sinner but hating the sin.

The gay wedding cake issue is great. At what point is it better to be loving and support their desire to celebrate a loving partnership of two people versus the danger of equating that relationship as equal to a hetero family that can procreate in a loving family. There is plenty of room to argue both sides and the effects of your actions.
There is plenty of other laudable and desirable aspects of Catholicism that is not easily abandoned. Especially when one is attempting to sincerely follow their thoughtful conscience to be as good a person as you can be, eating with the tax collector and showing kindness and respect to the multi-married woman while aware of your own shortcomings.

You can easily find priests, bishops, and SD, that will acknowledge exceptions to the rule based on charity and human imperfection. That's why the Church and Jews allow divorce.

 

The gay wedding cake issue is one in which it is legitimate, according to the Church's teaching, for Catholics to reach different conclusions.  It is a matter of prudential judgment in applying Catholic moral principles to a specific situation.  

 

This is not at all like situations in which people who call themselves Catholics reject dogmas and clearly defined doctrines.  This is what I had in mind when I  started the thread.

[Nihil Obstat]

Except that they think everything since Vatican II has been heresy.

The closest attitude you will find to that is with Mortify, and I am willing to bet that he would refuse to be labeled as such as well.

[Perigrina]

Heterodoxy - well the church has that view based on the merits of manifested beliefs, not emotions. So it can proclaim that certain ideas are more valid than others. But this doesn't mean it reacts in a way that is destructive when it is challenged. It would seek to support, teach and be alongside other people, as is Christ. I actually think much of the work the church does is in this spirit of being, on the whole anyway. Not all individuals are in the same place though, which isn't a surprise considering our numbers and other secondary differences.

In terms of priests and SD's - I guess people are human, not cardboard cut outs. I think it's up to Jesus, but I see nothing in their faith and action that deserves any such notion. There are far more pressing problems than people not adhering to a couple of peripheral ideas.  Not agreeing with this is, IMHO, the least of the worlds problems.
 

 

Heterodoxy is spiritually and intellectually destructive.  Heresy can destroy people's souls.  The emotional health of the people espousing heretical positions does not affect this.

 

The idea that the Church teaches authoritatively and, in some cases, infallibly is not a peripheral idea.  It is fundamental to the Church's self-understanding.

[Perigrina]

I find it hilarious that I get in trouble for disagreeing with some of the points of the Magisterium, and I am considered out of Communion, but such Sedevacantism which is in blatant rebellion with the Holy Father is tolerated and applauded.

 

I took KnightofChrist's reference to "false pontiffs" to refer to people who set themselves up as the highest authority in the Church rather than submitting to magisterial teaching.  I can see, however, how his comment could have been misunderstood as sedevacantism.  

 

For the record, sedevacantism is a completely unacceptable position and endangers people's communion with the Church.

[Perigrina]

This is a great Catholic attitude. Here is the thing for me. I do not care if somebody obeys the Magisterium. I am not preaching that people should disobey the Magisterium. I have good Catholic friends who are faithful to the Magisterium. All I say is that, I have these certain beliefs in variance with the Magisterium, and I cannot, in good conscience, adhere to certain beliefs. 

 

As I understand it, you are obliged in such a situation to follow your conscience while also striving to bring it into conformity with Church teaching. People in such situations should ensure that they have correctly understood Church teaching, discuss their problems with a priest and pray.  I would be glad to add my prayers, if you would like.

[Perigrina]

Thank you Arfink for commenting! It has been my experience as well as a few others I will not name that feel certain attitudes on PM have almost driven them away from the church. I have lessened my participation in this thread because I really dont think the approach "Youre wrong and Im right" is a good way to deal with people who feel differently on certain issues regarding the church...especially when the goal is unclear as to whether or not your trying to push these people away or bring them back.

 

There cannot be any question that the goal is always to bring people back.  Christ died so that all people could be saved.  

 

But sometimes showing people that they are taking positions that could cut them off from the Church is a first step before bringing them back.  People are not likely to come if they do not realize that they have left.

[John Ryan]

As I understand it, you are obliged in such a situation to follow your conscience while also striving to bring it into conformity with Church teaching. People in such situations should ensure that they have correctly understood Church teaching, discuss their problems with a priest and pray.  I would be glad to add my prayers, if you would like.

 

You are always welcome to pray for my soul.  :smile3:  The primary difference I have with the Church is that my conscience and intellect cannot abide the narrowly defined understanding of natural law in which each sex act has to be open to procreation. I am somewhat learned in philosophy, so I actually understand the Church's argument. I just cannot assent to it. If I did, I would be lying to both God and the Church, because there is not one inch of my soul that believes it. 

[Perigrina]

You are always welcome to pray for my soul.  :smile3:  The primary difference I have with the Church is that my conscience and intellect cannot abide the narrowly defined understanding of natural law in which each sex act has to be open to procreation. I am somewhat learned in philosophy, so I actually understand the Church's argument. I just cannot assent to it. If I did, I would be lying to both God and the Church, because there is not one inch of my soul that believes it. 

 

One cannot assent with a lie.  But you can recognize that your lack of assent is a problem and pray for the grace to assent.  Also, in some situations, one can obey without assent..  For example, one could refrain from using artificial contraception even while being unable to think the teaching against it is correct.  Obedience can help people to find assent.  At any rate, you have my prayers.

[John Ryan]

One cannot assent with a lie.  But you can recognize that your lack of assent is a problem and pray for the grace to assent.  Also, in some situations, one can obey without assent..  For example, one could refrain from using artificial contraception even while being unable to think the teaching against it is correct.  Obedience can help people to find assent.  At any rate, you have my prayers.

 

I have terrible health problems that can be inherited if I ever have a child, so I intend to adopt if I am ever married. I would get a vasectomy if I were ever in the position to have a sexual relationship with a significant other.

[Credo in Deum]

You are always welcome to pray for my soul.  :smile3:  The primary difference I have with the Church is that my conscience and intellect cannot abide the narrowly defined understanding of natural law in which each sex act has to be open to procreation. I am somewhat learned in philosophy, so I actually understand the Church's argument. I just cannot assent to it. If I did, I would be lying to both God and the Church, because there is not one inch of my soul that believes it. 

 

Start praying:  "Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death.  Amen."

 

 

Our Lady, seat of Wisdom.  Pray for us!

[John Ryan]

Start praying:  "Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death.  Amen."

 

 

Our Lady, seat of Wisdom.  Pray for us!

 

I say that prayer every night with my Green Scapular of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

[Perigrina]

I have terrible health problems that can be inherited if I ever have a child, so I intend to adopt if I am ever married. I would get a vasectomy if I were ever in the position to have a sexual relationship with a significant other.

 

If you were to use NFP instead, you could gain the graces that come with obedience.

 

Disobeying because obedience is difficult or inconvenient is a completely different from being unable to assent.

[Perigrina]

I say that prayer every night with my Green Scapular of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

 

Then your situation is very hopeful.

[CrossCuT]

But sometimes showing people that they are taking positions that could cut them off from the Church is a first step before bringing them back.  People are not likely to come if they do not realize that they have left.

No that should NOT be the first step. You need to gauge where that person is and who they are and if they would benefit from such a tactic. I think people on here are more likely to go with that route not because they have genuine care for the persons soul, but because they enjoy touting their knowledge and feeling superior. 

[Perigrina]

No that should NOT be the first step. You need to gauge where that person is and who they are and if they would benefit from such a tactic. I think people on here are more likely to go with that route not because they have genuine care for the persons soul, but because they enjoy touting their knowledge and feeling superior. 

 

I did say "sometimes".  I agree with you that is not necessarily the best approach, even when people mean well.  I think that it is difficult to communicate genuine care for souls in an online discussion setting, since that sort of thing is primarily expressed through tone of voice and body language.  But you are right about how important it is.  We really need to make the extra effort to get this across even in this more challenging medium.