CrossCuT Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) You quite literally instructed me to take extreme care not to insult people with pathological fantasies. The reason I call that Stalinist is that such an attitude makes every normal human interaction impossible. You'll have to live with neverending fear of (accidentally) saying something someone dislikes. And rudeness? In nearly every page of the Gospels Christ calls the Pharisees wicked etc. And I'd say that St. Paul is even more rude when he straightforwardly says that whoever perserveres in sodomy will burn in hell. I personally do not have respect for the LGTBQ+ becuase I do not agree with their agendas and because I do not believe they represent all homosexuals, especially Catholics who identify as homosexual and who live their faith. I personally wonder why anyone would view the LGTBQ+ as being the spokes person for everyone who identifies as Lesbian,Gay, Transgender, Bisexual, and Questioning? It's gotten to the point where any individual who identifies as one of these and who holds an opinion contrary to the status quo of the LGTBQ+, is accused of being either: not genuinly homoesexual ect., self-hating, or brainwashed -this especially in the case of those who have reformed their lives and views. Ok you two, enough of the silliness. Even God commanded us to love our enemies. And Oremus, like the worst thing you could do is bunch all members of the LGTBQ+ community together and then just collectively despise them. Its hard, but even people you dont like deserve respect because they are made in the image of God. There are some things I disagree with in the CCC, but the line I bolded is not one of them. Also FP made a good point too. You can still articulate your views without being rude or demeaning. There is no way I can see that will make sense of your view that justifies poor treatment of the LGTBQ+ community. Far be it from me to enforce things in the CCC, but seriously. You two are specifically saying, "I dont like the LGTBQ+ community" aka the people vs "I dont like the sin homosexuality". That is where I have a problem. I get the Catholic stance, but that doesnt justify poor treatment. I dont really know what to say other than you two exemplify why my disdain for religion grows: you use your ever loving God to justify disrespect, hatred, and intolerance. I dont think any saints made it to heaven by only being respectful and caring towards people they agreed with....i could be wrong. Edited February 11, 2015 by CrossCuT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oremus Pro Invicem Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) Ok you two, enough of the silliness. Even God commanded us to love our enemies. And Oremus, like the worst thing you could do is bunch all members of the LGTBQ+ community together and then just collectively despise them. Its hard, but even people you dont like deserve respect because they are made in the image of God. There are some things I disagree with in the CCC, but the line I bolded is not one of them. Also FP made a good point too. You can still articulate your views without being rude or demeaning. There is no way I can see that will make sense of your view that justifies poor treatment of the LGTBQ+ community. Far be it from me to enforce things in the CCC, but seriously. You two are specifically saying, "I dont like the LGTBQ+ community" aka the people vs "I dont like the sin homosexuality". That is where I have a problem. I get the Catholic stance, but that doesnt justify poor treatment. I dont really know what to say other than you two exemplify why my disdain for religion grows: you use your ever loving God to justify disrespect, hatred, and intolerance. Hello Cross I find it hard to discuss things with you because you tend to twist things I say into something they're not. Maybe thats my fault or maybe it's a habit you have picked up from discussing this issue with other people. Where did you get the impression that I view the individuals within the LGTBQ+ community as my enemies? Just because I do not repect what the LGBTQ+ stands for, or their agenda, does not mean I would not treat with respect the individual(s) who are a part of that group. There is a difference between the diginity of individual persons vs. groups and the agendas they represent. Edited February 11, 2015 by Oremus Pro Invicem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Just because I do not repect what the LGBTQ+ stands for, or their agenda, does not mean I would not treat with respect the individual(s) who are a part of that group. I personally do not have respect for the LGTBQ+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oremus Pro Invicem Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Notice how you didn't bother to quote the reason for why I do not respect the group and what it stands for. Good job CrossCut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) Dude. You are flip flopping. In one post you say "I dont respect the group of people" then in another youre like "Oh em gee dont you know the difference between respecting people and beliefs?" YES, yes I do. But apparently you dont. So either retract your first post or admit to your unwilling disdain for homosexuals and their supporters. Your response should have been "CC is 100% right. I might not agree with the LGTBQ+ community but I respect them as human beings." But what you actually said was aimed at me to the effect of "I dont respect the LGTBQ+ community because x,y, z." which would be a completely irrelevant statement if you indeed agreed with me in that we need to respect them as the CCC states. Edited February 11, 2015 by CrossCuT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oremus Pro Invicem Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Your response should have been "CC is 100% right. I might not agree with the LGTBQ+ community but I respect them as human beings." Thank you. I accept that this is what I should have said and thst it is what I was trying to convey. I respect the individuals within the community but I not respect the beliefs and agendas of the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Thank you. I accept that this is what I should have said and thst it is what I was trying to convey. I respect the individuals within the community but I not respect the beliefs and agendas of the community. Ok cool! I believe that you mean what you say, but it was just unclear. Thanks for fixing it! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catlick Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 You two are specifically saying, "I dont like the LGTBQ+ community" aka the people vs "I dont like the sin homosexuality". That is where I have a problem. I get the Catholic stance, but that doesnt justify poor treatment. 'To like' is typically democratic-egalitarian; in democracy 'being nice' is the highest virtue (or 'value', as we are fond of saying), maybe second only to 'showing respect'. Christ does not command us to like, but to love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 ok bro, you know what Im asking. Just be respectful. No need to try and convolute the request into some quasi philosophical argument as to why you think being a tool is justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) 'To like' is typically democratic-egalitarian; in democracy 'being nice' is the highest virtue (or 'value', as we are fond of saying), maybe second only to 'showing respect'. Christ does not command us to like, but to love. Yeah. Jesus also liked to stigmatize and legally coerce trans folk. If you want to think Trans people are mentally ill then that's fine. You have a right to hold embarrassing positions. Acting like a jerk comes with the drawback of everybody thinking you're a jerk. So it goes. Edited February 14, 2015 by Hasan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 'Jesus commands me to stigmatize and demean people I don't know and whose life experiences I know little, if anything, about. Why do all these darn neo-Stalinists think I'm a jerk??? Life is so unfair. Where might a man go where he can get all the benefits of being a bully without everybody treating him like a bully???' I know and have worked with a trans person. Seemed fine to me. So disingenuous of them to act like a friendly, competent colleague while secretly being being so dysfunctional and in need of people to explain to them how messed up they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIKA Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Why do you compare traditional values to bullying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Why do you compare traditional values to bullying? Why do I compare a set of values within one specific faith tradition to bullying? I don't, actually. I you personally find Trans people wrong then that's your business. But when people go around publicly trying to encourage stigmatization and ostracization of a marginalized and oppressed group I call that bullying because that's what a bully does. Bullies don't pick on the powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catlick Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Why do I compare a set of values within one specific faith tradition to bullying? I don't, actually. I you personally find Trans people wrong then that's your business. But when people go around publicly trying to encourage stigmatization and ostracization of a marginalized and oppressed group I call that bullying because that's what a bully does. Bullies don't pick on the powerful. None of the above has been done/said by anyone in this thread. I dare you to quote the precise statements stagmatizing, ostracizing etc. 'transgender' people. Edited February 16, 2015 by Catlick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 None of the above has been done/said by anyone in this thread. I dare you to quote the precise statements stagmatizing, ostracizing etc. 'transgender' people. "Men who think they're female (and vice versa) are often mentally ill. Their condition should be taken very seriously. Their ideas not." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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