The "papal Honeymoon" Is Over

[Cherie]

http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2014/10/28/phase-2-of-the-pope-francis-era-the-honeymoon-is-over/

Would love to know your thoughts on this!

[franciscanheart]

"Should the Catholic Church make its peace with same-sex unions – not in terms of giving moral approval or abandoning its teaching on marriage, but finding a less confrontational way to talk about these relationships and a more welcoming posture for people living in them?"

This has been something I've tried to discuss for a long time. I don't think it's going to happen here at phatmass, but I'd be really happy to see it happening in the "real" world.

[veritasluxmea]

 

 

• Should the Catholic Church make its peace with same-sex unions – not in terms of giving moral approval or abandoning its teaching on marriage, but finding a less confrontational way to talk about these relationships and a more welcoming posture for people living in them?
• Can the Catholic Church identify moral value in all sorts of lifestyle choices that fall outside the bounds of its teaching, such as couples living together without being married? Can the Church say that although such arrangements aren’t ideal, they still may have positive elements such as fidelity and mutual support?
• Will Catholicism relax its ban on giving communion to Catholics who divorce and remarry outside the Church, as an act of mercy, or would that amount to a retreat from the doctrine that marriage is permanent? 

I think those are all legitimate questions. Frankly, we need a clear and understandable voice with an answer on what we need to do. (Yes, you can argue that that already have been answered, and I agree that technically they have, but we need to know how to communicate and live that answer, now.) The division between "progressives" and "conservatives" makes it almost impossible to address this. Instead of conservatives vs. progressives or trying to focus on getting conservatives and progressives to work together or whatever, we need to distinguish between being a faithful Catholic in a relationship with Christ vs. choosing to hold views that are wrong and acting outside of a relationship with Christ. 

[PhuturePriest]

Should the Church make peace with people putting their immortal souls in danger by living sinful lives? No, and it's a silly question to ask.

 

Next, please.

[Basilisa Marie]

Well, if the Church was able to say somethings similar about non-Catholic and non-Christian religions while still maintaining the doctrine of being the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, it stands to reason that there might be something that could be done without denying all of our doctrines about marriage. Maybe not soon, but eventually. 

 

It certainly will be interesting to see how the rest of Francis' papacy plays out. I think we probably will start seeing changes to the way he wants bishops to handle certain situations, but I also understand the need for clarity, and reiterating things we know to be true. If the bishops can acknowledge that much of the misunderstanding and media spin is of the Devil, then it wouldn't kill them to make it a bit more difficult for him. 

[Basilisa Marie]

Should the Church make peace with people putting their immortal souls in danger by living sinful lives? No, and it's a silly question to ask.

 

Next, please.

 

Really? Please tell me you're not also in favor of tossing out Dignitatis Humanae and Nostra Aetate. 

 

*angrycommentaboutFP'sapparentlackofempathy*

Edited October 28, 2014 by Basilisa Marie

[veritasluxmea]

Should the Church make peace 

I think you're confusing making peace with forever passively accepting wrong behavior. I see "making peace" as meeting people where they are and giving them what they need in that moment. 

[Credo in Deum]

I think Francis will shock both camps. His closing address to the synod I believe is proof of this, since he called out both staunch liberals and conservatives. Both those who want change for the sake of change and to conform with the spirit of the world and those who are so against change that they do not allow the Church to grow.

[PhuturePriest]

Really? Please tell me you're not also in favor of tossing out Dignitatis Humanae and Nostra Aetate. 

 

*angrycommentaboutFP'sapparentlackofempathy*

 

I am in full favor of empathy and compassion. I do not think, however, that empathy and compassion are code words for throwing out the truth in the name of making people feel more welcome. The Church says homosexual acts are a sin that cry out to heaven for retribution, and I am inclined to agree with the Church. Is that harsh wording? Yes. Is it also the truth? Yes. It is also the truth that if I were to commit sins of a sexual nature, I would be in the same boat and in just as much danger of hell. You don't see me asking the Church to water down its language about my ultimate resting place if I live a life of sin. It is also the truth that God loves us all equally, regardless of inclination, and he wants us all in heaven with him and to in turn reject our base passions if they're leading us towards sin.

 

I am fully empathetic to the inclination towards sin, as I also sin. I am not empathetic to making us feel better about our sin by watering down its ugly truth with nicer language.

Edited October 28, 2014 by FuturePacker

[blazeingstar]

I think it's going to come down to

 

Conservatives-  Stop being verbally abusive bung-holes who thing that the world must work your way or else.  You are not in charge, never have been, never will be.  God is. Stop trying to control things you cannot, like civil law that's been passed when its not life or death.  Stop ignoring people because they do things you don't like.  Stop dismissing people because of choices they made

 

Liberals- Stop being ignorant and spreading lies.  Stop using the media as a mouthpiece for your dissatisfaction with the rules of the church.  Learn the rules of the church.  Stop facilitating sinful behavior.  Stop publicly disagreeing with the set-in-stone teachings of the church.

 

Both sides of these issues have turned into ignorant, pushy bullies.  The Church will only ever recognize one form of marriage, it will never allow for chemical birth control or sterilization, it will adhere to the male priesthood.   That's not going to change.  What will change is the "Traditional Latin Mass" churches that don't allow women in in pantaloons, or the "OF" masses that have homosexual speed dating events.

 

Nothing will change sin.

 

Do you think that the church has faced less?  Really?  Read the life of St. Vincent.  When he was assigned to a country parish he was given his own room, to which a young girl, about 8 or 9 was locked in with him so he could be "serviced"....and culturally that was the norm for priests and any men of power.   That was a culture.  It was even worse than what culture today is doing.

Edited October 28, 2014 by blazeingstar

[veritasluxmea]

I am in full favor of empathy and compassion. I do not think, however, that empathy and compassion are code words for throwing out the truth in the name of making people feel more welcome. The Church says homosexual acts are a sin that cry out to heaven for retribution, and I am inclined to agree with the Church. Is that harsh wording? Yes. Is it also the truth? Yes. It is also the truth that if I were to commit sins of a sexual nature, I would be in the same boat and in just as much danger of hell. You don't see me asking the Church to water down its language about my ultimate resting place if I live a life of sin. It is also the truth that God loves us all equally, regardless of inclination, and he wants us all in heaven with him and to in turn reject our base passions if they're leading us towards sin.

 

I am fully empathetic to the inclination towards sin, as I also sin. I am not empathetic to making us feel better about our sin by watering down its ugly truth with nicer language.

I agree, but reaching out and evangelizing homosexuals doesn't compromise that.

 

No one (here) is suggesting we change the truth. We're (or at least I am) simply wondering how we can best teach and help homosexuals grow closer to God. That seems to be best done by combining truth with charity and helping sinners encounter God's mercy, not just by stating the truth over and over again. 

[PhuturePriest]

I agree, but reaching out and evangelizing homosexuals doesn't compromise that.

 

No one (here) is suggesting we change the truth. We're (or at least I am) simply wondering how we can best teach and help homosexuals grow closer to God. That seems to be best done by combining truth with charity and helping sinners encounter God's mercy, not just by stating the truth over and over again. 

 

The most charitable thing you can do for a person is tell them the truth. Not telling them the truth is uncharitable. As I said before, it is true that homosexual acts are a sin that cry out to God for retribution. It is also true that God loves us all regardless of inclination and wants us in heaven. It is just as harmful to be selective and only tell the nice part of the truth as it is to be selective and tell only the negative side of the truth.

[MIKolbe]

"Should the Catholic Church make its peace with same-sex unions – not in terms of giving moral approval or abandoning its teaching on marriage, but finding a less confrontational way to talk about these relationships and a more welcoming posture for people living in them?"

This has been something I've tried to discuss for a long time. I don't think it's going to happen here at phatmass, but I'd be really happy to see it happening in the "real" world.

 

iawtp

[CrossCuT]

The most charitable thing you can do for a person is tell them the truth. Not telling them the truth is uncharitable. As I said before, it is true that homosexual acts are a sin that cry out to God for retribution. It is also true that God loves us all regardless of inclination and wants us in heaven. It is just as harmful to be selective and only tell the nice part of the truth as it is to be selective and tell only the negative side of the truth.

 

 

Did blazey and FP pull a freaky friday or something?

Edited October 28, 2014 by CrossCuT

[blazeingstar]

The most charitable thing you can do for a person is tell them the truth. Not telling them the truth is uncharitable. As I said before, it is true that homosexual acts are a sin that cry out to God for retribution. It is also true that God loves us all regardless of inclination and wants us in heaven. It is just as harmful to be selective and only tell the nice part of the truth as it is to be selective and tell only the negative side of the truth.

 

 

Now I know you have tons of experience dealing with people, FP, being a man of many talents and travels.

 

However, how would you go about handling this basic situation.  You have a friend with a small daughter (just them in the apartment) and you are cooking with her.  You open the fridge to find 4 lbs of butter.  Curious at the large amount of butter you ask, "Oh, friend, what are you cooking with all that butter?"

 

Friend replies, "Oh that's for 2 weeks, its how I get child to eat veggies"  Meaning 1/2 stick or 1/4 cup butter to get child to eat her veggies."

 

Do you 

 

a) Tell the truth to the mother bold and outright that she's killing her kid?

b) Make a suggestion that thats alot and ignore the problem

c) Also decide that 1/4 cup of butter on boiled veggies is a great idea

d) Cook with the mother every night for a few weeks showing her how to cook veggies so they are both palatable and use 1/10 of the butter she was originally

 

This in a tiny microcosm of what needs to be done to improve behavior.  She probably would not be my friend if I told her she was killing her kid even if it was "true"