The "papal Honeymoon" Is Over

[veritasluxmea]

The most charitable thing you can do for a person is tell them the truth. Not telling them the truth is uncharitable. As I said before, it is true that homosexual acts are a sin that cry out to God for retribution. It is also true that God loves us all regardless of inclination and wants us in heaven. It is just as harmful to be selective and only tell the nice part of the truth as it is to be selective and tell only the negative side of the truth.

I think we're both arguing around the same thing. I agree with you, but I think where we're disagreeing is how to approach the person and evangelize to them.

 

In my experience, walking up to someone, bluntly telling them "x is going to send you to hell, cries out to God, you need to repent and encounter Christ" will not work to draw them closer to God, the Church, or help them encounter Christ who can then transform their life. I think we can both agree that's the wrong approach and I'm sure you're not suggesting that. (Yes, there are always exceptions and in the history of the world I'm sure there's someone who needed that- but I'm talking about general, usual circumstances.)

 

There are people who are set against Christ and have rejected Him or are against encountering Him for whatever reason. (Usually because they have a distorted view of God and are scared of Him and are bitter and angry towards him for various wounds and traumas received during their life.) The best thing they need is Christ, to encounter and follow the Way, the Truth, and the Life to its fullest- no negative or positive bits picked out. (Again, I agree with you on that.) So... how do we do this? How do we give people the Truth in a way that changes their life? How do we evangelize?

 

That's what I'm concerned about- bringing the fullness of Truth, Christ in His Church, to people in a way that will get them to accept it and be able to move towards God. I think that, like me, that's also what you are concerned about. In my experience, gradualism and finding common ground (without compromise!) while being open about Church Teaching and your personal experiences with Christ is the best "method". 

[Basilisa Marie]

The most charitable thing you can do for a person is tell them the truth. Not telling them the truth is uncharitable. As I said before, it is true that homosexual acts are a sin that cry out to God for retribution. It is also true that God loves us all regardless of inclination and wants us in heaven. It is just as harmful to be selective and only tell the nice part of the truth as it is to be selective and tell only the negative side of the truth.

 

:rolleyes:

 

So instead of telling you the truth bluntly in a way that might make you feel bad or double down on your position, I'm going to choose to tell you the truth kindly, that recognizing the good in something doesn't somehow make the bad parts of it good, or make an ideal relationship any less ideal. 

 

Maybe you should pause and try actually talking with people who are in these situations, and see for yourself how effective your tactics are. 

[PhuturePriest]

:rolleyes:

 

So instead of telling you the truth bluntly in a way that might make you feel bad or double down on your position, I'm going to choose to tell you the truth kindly, that recognizing the good in something doesn't somehow make the bad parts of it good, or make an ideal relationship any less ideal. 

 

Maybe you should pause and try actually talking with people who are in these situations, and see for yourself how effective your tactics are. 

 

It may interest you to know I actually do know people in these situations, I do talk to them about this stuff, and it does work. I never said we should go to people and tell them they're going to hell, as that doesn't work. That is doing what I repeatedly denounced in this thread, which is focusing on one side of the truth and ignoring the other.

[PhuturePriest]

Did blazey and FP pull a freaky friday or something?

 

Since when is it weird for me to repeat the Church on matters of the faith? I don't have a Church Militant tag just because I'm so loveable and popular, you know.

[Basilisa Marie]

It may interest you to know I actually do know people in these situations, I do talk to them about this stuff, and it does work. I never said we should go to people and tell them they're going to hell, as that doesn't work. That is doing what I repeatedly denounced in this thread, which is focusing on one side of the truth and ignoring the other.

 

Then maybe you shouldn't start off your contribution to a thread with a rather callous quip, if you intend to be understood with more nuance? 

[CrossCuT]

[KnightofChrist]

The Church in her infancy did not come to peace with (aka accommodate) popular sins of the time, she gave the peace of Christ to persons who would except it. Pagan Rome at the time was much more sinful than today. There were many odd unions which were sexual in nature between persons then, as well as many other strange sins. She didn't come to peace with those sins, in fact she was so 'confrontational' against the world to the point that many of the faithful at the time were martyred. Perhaps our generation is just more enlightened and the blood of those martyrs was somewhat meaningless.

[CrossCuT]

I think we live in a time where we dont have to resort to war and violence in order to get our point across.   :unsure:

 

...least I hope we dont have to....

Edited October 28, 2014 by CrossCuT

[blazeingstar]

The Church in her infancy did not come to peace with (aka accommodate) popular sins of the time, she gave the peace of Christ to persons who would except it. Pagan Rome at the time was much more sinful than today. There were many odd unions which were sexual in nature between persons then, as well as many other strange sins. She didn't come to peace with those sins, in fact she was so 'confrontational' against the world to the point that many of the faithful at the time were martyred. Perhaps our generation is just more enlightened and the blood of those martyrs was somewhat meaningless.

 

Another good grief.  Yes, certain cultures at times faced different problems.  We are not dealing with those issues.  No one is saying "I will kill you if you don't play nice with homosexuals" Actually, they were called to be set apart and be kind...which isn't all that much different than what the Pope is saying.  Be set apart but really learn what we believe.  

 

Right now we are not truly in control of our own behaviors.  The people who are under the banner of Christian have many different views....not all in line with the church.

 

Quite frankly, times are different in most of the world today. 

[CrossCuT]

"Should the Catholic Church make its peace with same-sex unions – not in terms of giving moral approval or abandoning its teaching on marriage, but finding a less confrontational way to talk about these relationships and a more welcoming posture for people living in them?"

This has been something I've tried to discuss for a long time. I don't think it's going to happen here at phatmass, but I'd be really happy to see it happening in the "real" world.

 

It is happening in the real world! Thats whats so exciting! 

[KnightofChrist]

Another good grief.  Yes, certain cultures at times faced different problems.  We are not dealing with those issues.  No one is saying "I will kill you if you don't play nice with homosexuals" Actually, they were called to be set apart and be kind...which isn't all that much different than what the Pope is saying.  Be set apart but really learn what we believe.  

 

Right now we are not truly in control of our own behaviors.  The people who are under the banner of Christian have many different views....not all in line with the church.

 

Quite frankly, times are different in most of the world today. 

 

Yeah another good grief, just marginalize me please makes it easier to dismiss me as a nutter. Same goes for FP he's just a kid who makes callous quips that give people Ebola.

[CrossCuT]

Yeah another good grief, just marginalize me please makes it easier to dismiss me as a nutter. Same goes for FP he's just a kid who makes callous quips that give people Ebola.

 

Oh come on!!! I was trying to ease the tension!

 

I hope this doesnt mean youre going to stop sending me extra candy crush moves? :(

[blazeingstar]

Yeah another good grief, just marginalize me please makes it easier to dismiss me as a nutter. Same goes for FP he's just a kid who makes callous quips that give people Ebola.

 

I'm not saying nutter, I'm saying part of the problem.  People glamorize the time of Martyrs as if its an Itchy and Scratchy set where the Romans were going around with steaked clubs bopping Christians on the head for calling their sex acts naughty.

 

In reality, they were still humans who had normal human interactions.  It's one of the reasons St. Paul speaks about being unequally yoked.  Because being yoked (eg married) with an unbeliever creates a huge problem.  However, it would also imply that people reacted on a daily basis with those who did not believe.

 

One of Jesus' biggest changes He brought to religion was the idea of "loving your neighbor as yourself" and the idea that the sinful like Barnabus or the Good Samaratin, were humans, too.  

 

In our culture today, we've also become obsessed with blaze' labeling of people.  Those homosexuals and every so often one blatently celebate  donates to build a church or helps a kid so we say oh, that's a "Good homosexual".  Err no.  We're doing the EXACT same thing.  

 

By Jesus we're called to be Priest, profit and king.  Which means that we are called to minister, look ahead and to leadership roles.  There's nothing in there about bludgining sinners.

 

There are limits.  Jesus set limits on things.  If you're not welcome, shake the dust.  Harm the children, earn a millstone...so on and so forth.  But there's a huge balance.

 

Its just like pre-marital behavior.   Some couples find that not kissing before marriage works for them but then there are perfectly happy Catholic nudists who go to the beach together before marriage and kiss.  The church lets us decide what is best for us.  Perhaps you fall more towards the persons who don't kiss before marriage.  That's ok, there's room for you....so long as you don't say that nudists are going to hell or any other variety of chaste courtship in between.

[franciscanheart]

Really? Please tell me you're not also in favor of tossing out Dignitatis Humanae and Nostra Aetate. 
 
*angrycommentaboutFP'sapparentlackofempathy*

Remember: he has a lot of maturing to do, too. He's in that "MUST PROVE MANLINESS. MUST BE BUTTHEAD TO BE DEVOUT," stage that so many of us had to go through to get where we are now.
 

I think you're confusing making peace with forever passively accepting wrong behavior. I see "making peace" as meeting people where they are and giving them what they need in that moment.

YES. This. (A person with a brain! And a heart! That communicate! AMEN!)
 

I am in full favor of empathy and compassion. I do not think, however, that empathy and compassion are code words for throwing out the truth in the name of making people feel more welcome... I am not empathetic to making us feel better about our sin by watering down its ugly truth with nicer language.

No one is suggesting we should change the teaching of the Church. You say you're all for empathy and compassion, and then demand that we present a reality in words which convey, immediately and without mercy, the bottom line. Should we present the bottom line? Sure. Should we acknowledge sin for what it is? Of course. So where does God's Infinite Mercy come in? The way you have presented things, mercy is removed from the discussion.
 

The most charitable thing you can do for a person is tell them the truth. Not telling them the truth is uncharitable...

Most of what you're saying (over and over again) is that homosexual acts are sinful and disgraceful in the eyes of God and therefore the Church. We know that. There's no need to keep repeating it to sound faithful or dominate the conversation with Truth. We're all on the same page, and so far, all in agreement about the gravity of those sins. But that's not the focus on the conversation here, or there. The issue is how we address these things, and how we evangelize. In your perspective, as presented by you, we tell people straight up that God wants you in Heaven so you better quit that gay shit; it's an abomination.

Do you see where this might not be an effective means of conversion on the global scale?
 
 

Now I know you have tons of experience dealing with people, FP, being a man of many talents and travels.
 
However, how would you go about handling this basic situation.  You have a friend with a small daughter (just them in the apartment) and you are cooking with her.  You open the fridge to find 4 lbs of butter.  Curious at the large amount of butter you ask, "Oh, friend, what are you cooking with all that butter?"
 
Friend replies, "Oh that's for 2 weeks, its how I get child to eat veggies"  Meaning 1/2 stick or 1/4 cup butter to get child to eat her veggies."
 
Do you 
 
a) Tell the truth to the mother bold and outright that she's killing her kid?
b) Make a suggestion that thats alot and ignore the problem
c) Also decide that 1/4 cup of butter on boiled veggies is a great idea
d) Cook with the mother every night for a few weeks showing her how to cook veggies so they are both palatable and use 1/10 of the butter she was originally
 
This in a tiny microcosm of what needs to be done to improve behavior.  She probably would not be my friend if I told her she was killing her kid even if it was "true"

Storing this one away for future reference. :like:
 

It may interest you to know I actually do know people in these situations, I do talk to them about this stuff, and it does work. I never said we should go to people and tell them they're going to hell, as that doesn't work. That is doing what I repeatedly denounced in this thread, which is focusing on one side of the truth and ignoring the other.

It doesn't interest me, but then, I don't much care for people who are like, "I have a black friend. He's okay with me making racist comments. So, what's your problem?" Kinda the same thing.

On the whole, we've seen as a Church, I think, that our approach isn't working. Not because our teachings are wrong or mean or anything like that, but because the tone is all wrong, and people can't hear the mercy. I've struggled with it here at phatmass for years, and I'm a faithful Catholic. :like:
 

Since when is it weird for me to repeat the Church on matters of the faith? I don't have a Church Militant tag just because I'm so loveable and popular, you know.

No one is suggesting it's strange for you to be loyal to the Church. In fact, if anything, your passion for being right blinds you. Where is the compassion of Christ? You lack it sometimes, though I'm sure it doesn't feel that way.

[franciscanheart]

Then maybe you shouldn't start off your contribution to a thread with a rather callous quip, if you intend to be understood with more nuance?

But then where would be the shock value and chance for online martyrdom?! :idontknow:
 

The Church in her infancy did not come to peace with (aka accommodate) popular sins of the time, she gave the peace of Christ to persons who would except accept it. Pagan Rome at the time was much more sinful than today. There were many odd unions which were sexual in nature between persons then, as well as many other strange sins. She didn't come to peace with those sins, in fact she was so 'confrontational' against the world to the point that many of the faithful at the time were martyred. Perhaps our generation is just more enlightened and the blood of those martyrs was somewhat meaningless.

Fixed.
 

I'm not saying nutter, I'm saying part of the problem.  People glamorize the time of Martyrs as if its an Itchy and Scratchy set where the Romans were going around with steaked clubs bopping Christians on the head for calling their sex acts naughty.
 
In reality, they were still humans who had normal human interactions.  It's one of the reasons St. Paul speaks about being unequally yoked.  Because being yoked (eg married) with an unbeliever creates a huge problem.  However, it would also imply that people reacted on a daily basis with those who did not believe.
 
One of Jesus' biggest changes He brought to religion was the idea of "loving your neighbor as yourself" and the idea that the sinful like Barnabus or the Good Samaratin, were humans, too.  
 
In our culture today, we've also become obsessed with blaze' labeling of people.  Those homosexuals and every so often one blatently celebate  donates to build a church or helps a kid so we say oh, that's a "Good homosexual".  Err no.  We're doing the EXACT same thing.  
 
By Jesus we're called to be Priest, profit and king.  Which means that we are called to minister, look ahead and to leadership roles.  There's nothing in there about bludgining sinners.
 
There are limits.  Jesus set limits on things.  If you're not welcome, shake the dust.  Harm the children, earn a millstone...so on and so forth.  But there's a huge balance.
 
Its just like pre-marital behavior.   Some couples find that not kissing before marriage works for them but then there are perfectly happy Catholic nudists who go to the beach together before marriage and kiss.  The church lets us decide what is best for us.  Perhaps you fall more towards the persons who don't kiss before marriage.  That's ok, there's room for you....so long as you don't say that nudists are going to hell or any other variety of chaste courtship in between.

Emphasis mine.

I recently took time away from a friendship for exactly this reason. Despite her view of me as whole and respectable and good, she viewed other homosexuals with contempt and disgust. I was labeled good because I had earned such a label through my devotion to my faith. What she is missing -- what she cannot or will not see -- is that I am intrinsically valuable because I am.

It is frustrating beyond belief -- though markedly less hurtful now than it used to be -- to know just how many people in this world still operate in the modes of "good gays" and "bad gays", whether they'd label them with such direct language or not.