Nihil Obstat Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I don't think I ever disagreed with holding firm to withholding support from groups who are not in line with Church teaching. However, I think it's silly to support or encourage or endorse a group with whom you have no experience. I'm sure there are plenty others (I know of one locally that is a sort of child of Courage participation and so gets even less of my respect) but none which seem to carry the awareness that Courage carries. The sad part is, I don't think Courage does the best a group like that could do, and so many support it blindly because it's the only one they know of. That said, I think this could easily devolve into how to best care for homosexual persons in the Church and well, we know how that goes. You keep saying "no experience". I do not believe I ever said that. Sure, it is not comprehensive experience, but I have read about them, and read their own material, as well as material put out by people associated with them, so it is simply untrue to say I have "no experience". If there is something major wrong with Courage of which we are not aware, please share it. If you know of groups which are faithful to Church teaching and are preferable to Courage in certain ways, then please share them. No need to get on my case about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Im curious as to where the stumbling block is...honestly. No one ever second guesses loving and supporting someone who had a baby out of wedlock even while that is just as bad of a sin correct? That has become so normal that people dont even bat an eye. No one withholds services to heterosexuals who are living together without being married, no one says that heterosexuals who are not married cant be around their children, no one says that supporting non married heterosexuals (or single mothers) would also be support for the sin. I am sure people will spout off some excuses as to why this happens to homosexuals and not heterosexuals. I feel like catholics and christians alike would be the FIRST to put up arms in their defense and support. You all have God on your side dont you? Be leaders in love! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not The Philosopher Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I am a member of my local chapter of Courage. While I don't like people gesturing to it as the be-all-end-all of Catholic pastoral work on this issue, it certainly does not deserve the scorn with which it is frequently met. My experiences with it so far have been overall very positive. I wouldn't say that it's for everyone, and it's not without its limitations, but I do think it does good work in peoples lives, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I do have experience with Courage, both here and in Florida. Some members struggle, some have heroic virtue. The organization is in line with Church teaching even if some members fall short of perfection. The founder of the Edmonton Courage was at my birthday party Sunday. He's not gay, but was in charge of the archdiocesan family life department. He promoted Courage because it was the best choice among some really bad ones. They don't always succeed, but they don't give up trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 You keep saying "no experience". I do not believe I ever said that. Sure, it is not comprehensive experience, but I have read about them, and read their own material, as well as material put out by people associated with them, so it is simply untrue to say I have "no experience". If there is something major wrong with Courage of which we are not aware, please share it. If you know of groups which are faithful to Church teaching and are preferable to Courage in certain ways, then please share them. No need to get on my case about it. That's like saying I have experience with humpback whales because I've read about them and listened to them on videos. Heck, maybe I even saw one on vacation. So, fine, maybe you have "experience" with Courage. But I wouldn't assign any value to your "experience" based solely on your casual reading selections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 That's like saying I have experience with humpback whales because I've read about them and listened to them on videos. Heck, maybe I even saw one on vacation. So, fine, maybe you have "experience" with Courage. But I wouldn't assign any value to your "experience" based solely on your casual reading selections. No value whatsoever? Seems a bit petty of by you frankly. Nowhere did I claim to be an expert. I have a certain amount of experience which is obviously neither comprehensive nor nothing. That is all I have said in this entire thread. If you have an issue with that, then I think you are being unreasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I don't think I ever disagreed with holding firm to withholding support from groups who are not in line with Church teaching. However, I think it's silly to support or encourage or endorse a group with whom you have no experience. I'm sure there are plenty others (I know of one locally that is a sort of child of Courage participation and so gets even less of my respect) but none which seem to carry the awareness that Courage carries. The sad part is, I don't think Courage does the best a group like that could do, and so many support it blindly because it's the only one they know of. That said, I think this could easily devolve into how to best care for homosexual persons in the Church and well, we know how that goes. Why don't you actually state the issues you have with Courage, rather than being ambiguous? It would be much more fruitful for discussion. Not doing so borders on being uncharitable, as you have raised charges against a highly respected apostolate founded by a priest, which is quite serious business. The least you could do is state what they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Why don't you actually state the issues you have with Courage, rather than being ambiguous? It would be much more fruitful for discussion. Not doing so borders on being uncharitable, as you have raised charges against a highly respected apostolate founded by a priest, which is quite serious business. The least you could do is state what they are. You're a drama llama. Also, aren't you supposed to be on hiatus until Easter? No value whatsoever? Seems a bit petty of by you frankly. Nowhere did I claim to be an expert. I have a certain amount of experience which is obviously neither comprehensive nor nothing. That is all I have said in this entire thread. If you have an issue with that, then I think you are being unreasonable. Instead of calling me petty and unreasonable, why don't you explain why your casual reading about an organization with whom you have no ACTUAL experience is supposed to hold real weight with me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 If you read Nazi propaganda, they're just a bunch of guys who wanted to form a virtuous society and fight the forces of evil. If you dealt personally with Nazis when you weren't part of the approved party, you found out that it wasn't such a nice thing, after all. This is the difference. People who take the moral high ground and employ talk of goodness and virtue, are ofttimes cruel to those they're supposed be helping. There is a difference between the map and the territory, and this is the distinction being made, if I catch the drift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Instead of calling me petty and unreasonable, why don't you explain why your casual reading about an organization with whom you have no ACTUAL experience is supposed to hold real weight with me? Once again, it is simply untrue that I have no experience with the group. I simply do not have direct experience. Nor did I claim otherwise. If you recall, I actually had not addressed anything to you. You are the one who came into this thread determined to make an issue out of my statements. And let us be quite clear here, all I said was that Dignity is not in line with Church teaching, and Courage is. I also specifically asked for your input at least twice with regards to other groups which are in line with Church teaching, and which for whatever reason you might prefer. And so far you have declined to mention any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not The Philosopher Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 20 Pages Later....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 You're a drama llama. Also, aren't you supposed to be on hiatus until Easter? We've all (well a great many of us) sworn off PM in some fashion or form only to come back. So who really cares? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Credo in Deum Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I should just suspend everyone for Holy Week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 You're a drama llama. Also, aren't you supposed to be on hiatus until Easter? Instead of calling me petty and unreasonable, why don't you explain why your casual reading about an organization with whom you have no ACTUAL experience is supposed to hold real weight with me? The more people like yourself mention this, the longer I'll stay around. It would be an act of selfishness to deprive you all of my presence, which you are so dearly missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 If you read Nazi propaganda, they're just a bunch of guys who wanted to form a virtuous society and fight the forces of evil. If you dealt personally with Nazis when you weren't part of the approved party, you found out that it wasn't such a nice thing, after all. This is the difference. People who take the moral high ground and employ talk of goodness and virtue, are ofttimes cruel to those they're supposed be helping. There is a difference between the map and the territory, and this is the distinction being made, if I catch the drift. I love your brain. Once again, it is simply untrue that I have no experience with the group. I simply do not have direct experience. Nor did I claim otherwise. If you recall, I actually had not addressed anything to you. You are the one who came into this thread determined to make an issue out of my statements. And let us be quite clear here, all I said was that Dignity is not in line with Church teaching, and Courage is. I also specifically asked for your input at least twice with regards to other groups which are in line with Church teaching, and which for whatever reason you might prefer. And so far you have declined to mention any. I love that you are so adamant about arguing the semantics of your experience claim and not at all interested in explaining why it should have any merit in anyone's mind whatsoever. I also really love that you're such a drama llama. lol. You'll note below my first post in this thread -- the second response and an hour before you even entered the conversation. So sure, claim that I came here just to make an issue out of your inexperienced opinion, but I can assure you that your victimhood is, once again, a farce. I think this applies to anyone struggling with severe anxiety and/or depression about anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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