Duggar scandal

[Maggyie]

unfortunately this is giving various atheists etc a field day. In spite of the fact that many Christians are not Duggar theology types. 

Personally I think since he was a minor child at the time, this should remain in the past, I am not a fan of treating kids like adults when it comes to legal things. 

Also worried about him because when kids act out sexually that way it is often in response to abuse or neglect. 

[Kateri89]

I agree and I'm not a fan of covering up scandals like this but for the sake of his sisters and the rest of his family this is the sort of situation that should be handled privately by the family as well as law enforcement.  This seems to be one of the sins that the world sees as unforgiveable.  The people who hate the Duggars to begin with will just use this as fuel for their fire.  It's a horrible situation all around, but I hope for the sake of the victims and everyone else involved this gets resolved properly.  If it means the show is permanently cancelled, that's just the way life goes.  Besides, if I were one of the sisters who was molested and the public knew about it, I'm not sure I would want to be on TV anymore.

[veritasluxmea]

The discussion from the Bishop thread on the Duggars should be moved here. 

[hotpink]

I feel really bad for Josh, almost as much as the sisters.  They don't go into detail.  Recently something came out about one of my best friends.  He and his sisters were left alone way, way too much (single mom and all that) and they played games when clothed that were of a sexual nature.  They were all close in age but one of the sisters (the one older than him) has gone off the deep end.  My friend is devistated...he truly didn't know it was wrong and the only time his mom did catch them playing the "feels" game she told them they were being naughty...almost exactly how she talked about not eating cerial for dinner or wearing shoes in the house.  As aduts he has had a hard time dealing with the fact that this game hurt her.  But it wasn't really his fault...he didn't know it was wrong...and it took him years to figure out that he was done with the game.  Like the duggar kid he was a kid 12ish when everything stopped for good....so it's not just easy and straightforward

[CatherineM]

I'm really glad the stupid stuff I did when I was 14-15 years old isn't national news. 

[Ice_nine]

yeah it's a sad situation all around. It's all the more sad because there are people who salivate when these types of scandals break "oh I thought you were such good Christians lolz" and "oh I thought it was the gays who molest children har har."

But I hope he truly is changed and all of his victims are not still suffering from it. And I agree with Maggyie it's possible that he was molested himself. Most people who do these things to kids have been on the receiving end of abuse.

[veritasluxmea]

I've read people calling for his family to go under investigation to make sure he isn't harming his current children  

[Ice_nine]

 

I've read people calling for his family to go under investigation to make sure he isn't harming his current children  

​Of course the pitchforks are coming out. People hate them.

And it's the internet where every Tom Dick and Harry thinks he knows everything about everything.

[NadaTeTurbe]

I think it is impossible to judge this case when you don't have the version of the victims. Does they suffer now ? Have they forgiven ? We can't speak about it if we don't know what the victims think, and with all the medias, the victims will never speak. I volunteer with sexual abuse victims, and some of them choose to do not go to the police, because they don't feel able to, because they want to forget or forgive, etc... While it is hard to hear (we all want to see raper in prison), it is something we should respect. 

I've read people calling for his family to go under investigation to make sure he isn't harming his current children

It is the most stupid thing I have ever heard. There's a difference between pedophile and abuser/raper. 

Btw, this highlights the importance of speaking of consent and "your body belongs to you" from a young age. In middle school and high school, I've heard of abortion, contraception, "homosexuality is ok", but NOT ONCE about consent. I think this is something that must begin in childhood. It does not mean "we will talk about rape to a 5 year old child," but tell them often "your body belongs to you. No one can touch you without asking, and nobody can touch you in your private part "and  to tell " you must not touch people in their private parts, because after you make them sad. This is not good. "

For the moment, I think the reaction of the family is okay. he resigned for the job, the family spoke clearly about the abuse being a sin. Meanwhile, in my country, a politic man (a socialist, btw) accused twice of rape and once of using prostitute is still free and even popular. For me, this is more serious. 

[beatitude]

This was more than a 'stupid mistake'. It was a crime. All of us did commit stupid mistakes as teenagers, but most of us did not commit crimes.

It was also not a crime that was dealt with properly at the time. Initially the Duggar parents claimed that everyone involved had received counselling, with Josh being sent to a treatment program, but on questioning by the police it was found that the 'treatment program' was three months helping a family friend with some home redecoration. This man was not a trained professional of any sort. The police interviewer asked if he was intended more as a mentor; Josh's mother replied, "Kind of, yeah."

It can be very hard to face up to the fact that someone you love and respect has done something so wrong. This is one of the reasons why we had cover-ups in the Church; people didn't want to believe that Fr So-and-so, who was otherwise so capable and friendly and helpful, could possibly have done that - no, it must have been some mistake, and everyone makes mistakes, don't they? But just as it's not compassionate to demonise someone over their crime, it's also not compassionate to gloss over it and make excuses for it. Josh needed to go to a real treatment program and he didn't get that. It's also impossible to say if the victims got the help and support they needed, but given that Josh's 'counselling' turned out to be a few months helping on a building project, it's doubtful.

It concerns me that some people seem to be more concerned about the potential damage that this could do to Christianity's image than they are to the damage that may have been done to the victims. This concern doesn't even make sense, as the type of people who will gossip over the Duggars and use this as a brush to smear all Christians are the type of people who had zero time or respect for Christianity to start with, and in any case Christ is always stronger than the sins of his followers. We give a better testament to our faith by being compassionate and yet just in how we respond to this - no uncharitable demonisations (e.g. "I always knew that family must be messed up!") but no equally uncharitable excuses either ("It was just a mistake he made when he was kid"). I think there is a risk that people idealise this family and by rationalising what went on they're trying to protect the image of them they've got from the TV, which isn't helpful.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

This was more than a 'stupid mistake'. It was a crime. All of us did commit stupid mistakes as teenagers, but most of us did not commit crimes.

It was also not a crime that was dealt with properly at the time. Initially the Duggar parents claimed that everyone involved had received counselling, with Josh being sent to a treatment program, but on questioning by the police it was found that the 'treatment program' was three months helping a family friend with some home redecoration. This man was not a trained professional of any sort. The police interviewer asked if he was intended more as a mentor; Josh's mother replied, "Kind of, yeah."

It can be very hard to face up to the fact that someone you love and respect has done something so wrong. This is one of the reasons why we had cover-ups in the Church; people didn't want to believe that Fr So-and-so, who was otherwise so capable and friendly and helpful, could possibly have done that - no, it must have been some mistake, and everyone makes mistakes, don't they? But just as it's not compassionate to demonise someone over their crime, it's also not compassionate to gloss over it and make excuses for it. Josh needed to go to a real treatment program and he didn't get that. It's also impossible to say if the victims got the help and support they needed, but given that Josh's 'counselling' turned out to be a few months helping on a building project, it's doubtful.

It concerns me that some people seem to be more concerned about the potential damage that this could do to Christianity's image than they are to the damage that may have been done to the victims. This concern doesn't even make sense, as the type of people who will gossip over the Duggars and use this as a brush to smear all Christians are the type of people who had zero time or respect for Christianity to start with, and in any case Christ is always stronger than the sins of his followers. We give a better testament to our faith by being compassionate and yet just in how we respond to this - no uncharitable demonisations (e.g. "I always knew that family must be messed up!") but no equally uncharitable excuses either ("It was just a mistake he made when he was kid"). I think there is a risk that people idealise this family and by rationalising what went on they're trying to protect the image of them they've got from the TV, which isn't helpful.

​Beautifully said!

[Maggyie]

The thing is I don't think it's helpful to "criminalize" the behavior problems of children. I put criminalize in quotes because obviously, the act is a crime legally and morally speaking and nothing can change that.

But the fear of the juvenile justice system, CPS etc is what can lead to  a delay in parents reporting or getting help. Particularly with sex crimes the American focus is on retributive instead of restorative justice. This is the opposite of what juvenile offenders and their victims need. 

My husband and I were considering building our family through adoption and we attended a couple workshops put on by a local org. With adopting through foster care we learned this is a more common issue than you would think and is a common reason for adoption disruption (esp if there are sibling children in the home the adoptee selects to offend against). An important thing is to realize a child offender is first and foremost a child. They are not monsters, the only thing monstrous is failing to help a child who needs help.  

[Archaeology cat]

My husband and I were considering building our family through adoption and we attended a couple workshops put on by a local org. With adopting through foster care we learned this is a more common issue than you would think and is a common reason for adoption disruption (esp if there are sibling children in the home the adoptee selects to offend against). An important thing is to realize a child offender is first and foremost a child. They are not monsters, the only thing monstrous is failing to help a child who needs help.  

​Yes, that is something I've seen.

In general, I agree with beatitude. Maybe he shouldn't have faced criminal charges, but received proper counseling and treatment and kept away from the girls, yes. Prayers for all involved.

[Makarioi]

Couldn't have said it better myself, Beatitude! 

[Ice_nine]

 

It concerns me that some people seem to be more concerned about the potential damage that this could do to Christianity's image than they are to the damage that may have been done to the victims.

​It concerns me that people relish in the sins of another person more than they're concerned for the victims.

[Lumiere]

Josh's activities at 14 were a symptom of a family that needed help as a whole. How did he molest 4 sisters and another girl outside of the family before he was caught if the girls were not intimidated in some way? Was the pressure so great on this family to project the "perfect Christian" image that the girls felt they would not be believed or supported if they told? Remember the girls shared a room then and now. How did he move into that room at night and select a victim without the other girls knowing? When he was caught the whole family should have received proper counseling with experts in the area, not "Christian counselors" who would have preached forgiveness and helped the parents to cover it up.

As far as forgiveness goes it is not as simple as pretending the sexual abuse never happened: Six Things to Know About Sexual Abuse and Forgiveness 

by John Shore

[Ash Wednesday]

For everyone's sake, the show needs to be pulled off the air for good. The family was already just a modern day version of a circus sideshow for people to gawk at like freaks as entertainment value rather than human beings -- and nothing good will come of this all being played out as a public spectacle. I hope that everyone involved in need of any professional help will be able to receive it.

[MarysLittleFlower]

unfortunately this is giving various atheists etc a field day. In spite of the fact that many Christians are not Duggar theology types. 

Personally I think since he was a minor child at the time, this should remain in the past, I am not a fan of treating kids like adults when it comes to legal things. 

Also worried about him because when kids act out sexually that way it is often in response to abuse or neglect. 

I think this type of show was not the best idea for a family. I don't know if it somehow indirectly lead to the abuse... 

I'm not familiar with the situation.. Was the boy in question 14? I think while that is young and probably came from some sort of brokenness etc - obviously he was in need of help - that is also not so young that there was no knowledge what he was doing. 14 was treated as a grown up age in the past... It is not really being a child anymore. It doesn't mean the whole emphasis should be on giving him a sentence. He needed help and at least should be given help now. However if I'm correct about the age, its certainly past the age of reason when we are responsible for what we do so he needs to take responsibility for the damage done... While at the same time being helped to deal with it and with anything that could have made his childhood difficult if it was. I don't know why he did this. I'm not saying there was something happening in the family.

I still don't think its healthy to put a family on TV for years.

[Socrates]

I don't watch this show (or much other TV), nor do I otherwise follow the Duggars, but the atheist response is typical, though it hardly constitutes an argument against Christian Faith.  Atheists and other anti-Christians will always take devilish glee in professed Christians (especially of  a conservative variety) committing vile acts which blatantly contradict Christian morality.  It's no different than their delight at the scandal of pederast priests, or Mel Gibson's misbehavior.  But such misdeeds reveal only the hypocrisy or weakness of those that commit them, rather than disproving any Christian teaching.

Of course, these same enlightened souls who like to blame Christian Faith for every crime committed by a professed Christian, usually go into conniptions whenever anyone dare bring up the atheism of Communist dictators or other depraved persons.  ("They're not real atheists!  Real atheists are peaceful and loving!")

 

[Socrates]

Meanwhile, in my country, a politic man (a socialist, btw) accused twice of rape and once of using prostitute is still free and even popular. For me, this is more serious. 

​Similar to the situation here in the States.  Devotion to left-wing ideology covers a multitude of sins.  (See the career of the Clintons or the late Ted Kennedy for examples.)