Ireland Reff/ Marriage

[superblue]

So Ireland is patting itself on the back on their recent ruling, and once pandoras box is open, it is near impossible to shut.

 

I am finding it rather odd, I really thought Ireland was a big time Catholic place being St. Patrick and all that history, or at least really religious in general with the fighting between Protestants and Catholics.  The history of Ireland i am not that booked up on.... So an reasons for this taking place other than flat out blaming satan. Could parts of the USA having legalized gay marriage have been a cause...

 

thoughts.

 

[Starets]

I think this Daily Beast article nails it pretty succinctly:

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/22/how-irish-gay-marriage-isn-t-like-america-s.html

[Nihil Obstat]

Just like nearly everywhere else in the world, the faith in Ireland is dead save for the timeless promise of our Lord. Secular society everywhere is doomed to follow the same trajectories of perversion and iniquity until we actually get serious about introducing and supporting the social reign of Christ the King.

[puellapaschalis]

The majority of people, Irish or no, have no wish or desire for Heaven.

[Norseman82]

Time to resurrect the use of the interdict...

[superblue]

Is this a wake up call to the church as a whole, or just Ireland in comparison to only a handful of states in the US accepting " gay marriage " . ( need to use quotations on that )   The stick does not seem to have worked, what can the carrot offer. It seems rebelling because one can is a new trend and  beans to the reprocussions of it.  How does Irelands' decision and states in the US to allow this, and where ever else in the world harm the church from the top down and how does it harm ones faith as a Catholic or Christian.

[Nihil Obstat]

Is this a wake up call to the church as a whole, or just Ireland in comparison to only a handful of states in the US accepting " gay marriage " . ( need to use quotations on that )   The stick does not seem to have worked, what can the carrot offer. It seems rebelling because one can is a new trend and  beans to the reprocussions of it.  How does Irelands' decision and states in the US to allow this, and where ever else in the world harm the church from the top down and how does it harm ones faith as a Catholic or Christian.

What stick? Your average parish priest has his hands tied to such an extent that he is afraid to denounce anyone over any so-called hot button issue whatsoever. Forget denouncing; some of them will not even preach the whole truth for fear of offending someone. There is no stick. There has not been for decades.

[Socrates]

Is this a wake up call to the church as a whole, or just Ireland in comparison to only a handful of states in the US accepting " gay marriage " . ( need to use quotations on that )   The stick does not seem to have worked, what can the carrot offer. It seems rebelling because one can is a new trend and  beans to the reprocussions of it.  How does Irelands' decision and states in the US to allow this, and where ever else in the world harm the church from the top down and how does it harm ones faith as a Catholic or Christian.

​A little off topic, but while only a few states actually voted for "gay marriage," many more have had this abomination forced on them by federal courts, and it will likely become law of the land by SCOTUS decree.  (In direct violation of the Constitution, which gives the federal government no power to define marriage, period).

Sadly, plenty of "libertarians" will cheer this judicial tyranny.

[Winchester]

Time to resurrect the use of the interdict...

That 'all are punished' nonsense just drives the behaviors sanctioned underground.

[Norseman82]

And underground is exactly where it belongs, like it used to be.

Besides, it's about telling Catholics to start acting like Catholics, including in the voting booth.  A small reminder here on earth could prevent a rude awakening on judgment day.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Norseman82

[Nihil Obstat]

Every priest who did not speak out against this development should be formally warned. The ones who publicly supported it should be suspended or defrocked. Parishes that resist those acts of justice should be interdiction. 

I bet not a single priest will be warned about not doing their duty. Not one will be reminded that they will answer to God for every single soul they lose to the Enemy.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Nihil Obstat

[Winchester]

And underground is exactly where it belongs, like it used to be.

I feel as if I understand you, now.

[PhuturePriest]

I feel as if I understand you, now.

​Says the person with 6660 props.

[Nihil Obstat]

The Irish referendum: personal implications for Catholics’ public actions

May 24, 2015

That 40% of Irish voters bucked some of their own priests and bishops and nearly all of their politicians and major media to side with a true-marriage campaign that mustered hardly one euro for every ten spent by its opponents says something about the resiliency of natural law and Church teaching on marriage. But, silver linings aside, the outcome of the constitutional referendum on marriage in Ireland is a disaster.

“Same-sex marriage” has usually been imposed by activist judges; in Ireland it won by popular vote. “Same-sex marriage” is often insinuated into the legal landscape by blurring distinctions between it and “same-sex unions”; in Ireland marriage itself was expressly on the line. “Same-sex marriage” in most places set in only after decades of relentless secular media promotion; in Ireland it seems to have come about almost overnight.

But as the Church now tries to figure out how, for the umpteenth time in her history, she must go about teaching people how to be human, she must also explain to Catholics what it means to be Catholic. Specifically, she must be clear that some public actions carry personalconsequences for Catholics especially when we are talking about Catholics who play a part in bringing about a repudiation of perennial natural law and a rejection of irrefutable Catholic doctrine. Obviously—and without reading souls, but considering things objectively—degrees of personal culpability for such acts will vary depending on two main factors: the specific actions taken by individuals and their places in the social or ecclesiastical order.

At the lower end of the responsibility scale are, I suppose, rank-and-file Catholics who cast a personal ballot securing, not just passage of the amendment, but its passage by a higher margin than would have occurred without their vote. At the higher end of the responsibility scale are, of course, Catholics who, from positions of political, social, or ecclesiastical prestige, lent their influence to the cause of “same-sex marriage”. But any Catholic who directly helped to bring about Ireland’s decision to treat as marriage unions of two persons of the same sex has, at a minimum, arrayed himself against the infallible doctrine of the Church and, quite possibly, has committed an act of heresy. (See myPrimer of 27.III.2013). In either event, the technical term for such an action is “sin”; the consequences of sin are always spiritual andsometimes canonical; and the solution for sin is repentance and Confession.

May all Catholics, whether contributing to this disaster or grieving it (even from afar), set ourselves to righting it as soon as possible.

Note: As we sort out this latest mess, I urge Catholics to avoid running down the rabbit hole of wondering whether this supporter or that of “same-sex marriage” has been excommunicated for such support. Latae sententiae sanctions must be, in my opinion, eliminated from canon law but, in the meantime, debating latae sententiaepenalties shifts attention away from the real problem at hand (the legalization of “same-sex marriage”) which all must address, and toward the intricacies of penal canon law which precious few are qualified to talk about.

 

[Nihil Obstat]

Every priest who did not speak out against this development should be formally warned. The ones who publicly supported it should be suspended or defrocked. Parishes that resist those acts of justice should be interdiction. 

I bet not a single priest will be warned about not doing their duty. Not one will be reminded that they will answer to God for every single soul they lose to the Enemy.

​I need to stop writing involved posts on my phone.  That should read "Parishes that resist those acts of justice should be interdicted."

 

Anyway, this applies to every single country currently facing these same problems. American, Canadian, German, wherever. We cannot afford weak pastors or bishops. The Church has been mocked enough; now it is time to forget compromise and forget trying to please everyone. It is time to teach the faith, and act like we actually believe it.

[superblue]

What stick? Your average parish priest has his hands tied to such an extent that he is afraid to denounce anyone over any so-called hot button issue whatsoever. Forget denouncing; some of them will not even preach the whole truth for fear of offending someone. There is no stick. There has not been for decades.

​exactly when is the appropriate time for your average parish priest to denounce what the secular world is doing in this regard and exactly who are " they " afraid of and why ?

[superblue]

Every priest who did not speak out against this development should be formally warned. The ones who publicly supported it should be suspended or defrocked. Parishes that resist those acts of justice should be interdiction. 

I bet not a single priest will be warned about not doing their duty. Not one will be reminded that they will answer to God for every single soul they lose to the Enemy.

​ i can appreciate the sentiment, but what good would this actually accomplish ? Not saying that if any Catholic who supported this bill in Ireland or any where should not be counseled and educated on why their decision is wrong, but with a lack of priests as it is, to then put current priests on a formal warning, i do not think is the way to go nor would have any positive outcome. And again it is time consuming a priests' life; there are only so many hours in a day, so time has to be budgeted wisely, we can not expect a parish priest to do all the  work for us.  I would of if anything expected Bishops to support and motivate their priests to not be afraid to speak up when possible and to work with their parishes to form some kind of out reach to the gay community to not only bring the Gospel to them but to open up communications about what the church really is.

 

Maybe the Church has been mocked enough, but to think it is ever going to stop , i doubt that, and it isn't a discussion of compromising it should have never been from what ever the start was, but to peacefully bring change. As much fun as it is to rain down fire and hell what all good does it accomplish other than burning and damning people.  Fear is hardly a tactic worth pursuing in this. It only leads to more resentment that is already unnecessarly there.

 

We need better leadership from our bishops on this topic is what i am seeing.

[Nihil Obstat]

​exactly when is the appropriate time for your average parish priest to denounce what the secular world is doing in this regard and exactly who are " they " afraid of and why ?

Homilies would be a good start. They are afraid of many things. Angering parishioners, losing donations, being marked as a troublemaker or as unpastoral. Being given all the punishment assignments.

​I can appreciate the sentiment, but what good would this actually accomplish ? Not saying that if any Catholic who supported this bill in Ireland or any where should not be counseled and educated on why their decision is wrong, but with a lack of priests as it is, to then put current priests on a formal warning, i do not think is the way to go nor would have any positive outcome. And again it is time consuming a priests' life; there are only so many hours in a day, so time has to be budgeted wisely, we can not expect a parish priest to do all the  work for us.  I would of if anything expected Bishops to support and motivate their priests to not be afraid to speak up when possible and to work with their parishes to form some kind of out reach to the gay community to not only bring the Gospel to them but to open up communications about what the church really is.

 

Maybe the Church has been mocked enough, but to think it is ever going to stop , i doubt that, and it isn't a discussion of compromising it should have never been from what ever the start was, but to peacefully bring change. As much fun as it is to rain down fire and hell what all good does it accomplish other than burning and damning people.  Fear is hardly a tactic worth pursuing in this. It only leads to more resentment that is already unnecessarly there.

 

We need better leadership from our bishops on this topic is what i am seeing.

But that is the attitude that brought us here to begin with. Leave well enough alone because it could still get worse.

No. We cannot afford that. The Church is too weak right now. The faith is too weak.

[Ark]

Anti-Catholic social engineering coupled with Irish Jansenist tendencies made toppling their Catholic culture easy.

[superblue]

Homilies would be a good start. They are afraid of many things. Angering parishioners, losing donations, being marked as a troublemaker or as unpastoral. Being given all the punishment assignments.

 

But that is the attitude that brought us here to begin with. Leave well enough alone because it could still get worse.

No. We cannot afford that. The Church is too weak right now. The faith is too weak.

​For the life of me i can not off hand even contemplate how one could work in how homosexual marriages are wrong and what anyone can do about it into a homily after the reading of the Gospel, that would take some considerable stretching considering the homily is to be focused on the Gospel , not just any particular current event less one can tie the two together, If the attitude is that the Bishops need to be better leaders, i wouldn't so much call that leave well enough alone, but more of a lack of what could have 38% of the voting public of Ireland of told their bishops, or what in the world can lay people write to their bishop about to then turn to his priests and go look, speak up about this, stop worrying, leave the worrying to me.

 

because in the worry department, at least on topics like this, to me it seems the weight of the worry should be taken off the parish priest and left to the Bishop, start printing out notes in bullitens after mass that read, have a problem with todays homily, write your bishop, got a complaint, or are you just generally a complainer go complain to your bishop, i am doing my job.

 

How to put that in a more polite manner with hitting that point is also out of my league.

I do think though for hot topic buttons like this, parishes need more of our own town hall meetings,or call it what ever you want there are tons of regular retreats for marriage counseling , youth retreats, etc.  so perhaps the question is why doesn't our respective parishes have such things to address issues like these and come up with ways your average Catholic can make a difference .

The only other thing i know of is for Ireland Catholics to start praying to ST. Patrick once again.