Fr. Ripperger: NeoCatholicism vs. Traditionalism

[Guest]

[Gabriela]

What exactly do you suggest that I be doing ? Going to a Latin Mass? Watching Voris Church Militant videos and reading material from his website?  Or giving more to the poor and helping those in need? If you say the latter I totally agree.

Why would you think I'd suggest going to a Latin Mass or watching Voris? Yes, you should do more to help the poor and those in need. We all should. But I think my previous post made clear that by "doing more" I meant "doing study". You immediately dismissed the link I posted to FOCUS because "you know a lot about the Church already". But we could all learn more, and as I said, some of the more learned posters feel you need to in order to ensure that your beliefs are in alignment with the Church's. FOCUS talks are a really easy way to learn more. 

As far as changing what music I listen to why would I do that? Do you have a problem with hip hop? You realize most of these hip hop artist are black and grew up in the ghetto and in poverty? They have been underprivileged their whole lives and they are using their God given gift. Why would I stop listening to Lecrae? Are you familiar with his music? Give me some things you find troubling about it. If you're not familiar with it then I think you should familiarize yourself with it before you tell me I shouldn't listen to it and that it's harming my faith.

I said: 

Protestant hip hop may be slowly influencing your opinions on the Faith.
St. Augustine said, "He who sings, prays twice." And "lex orandi, lex credendi"—"the law of prayer is the law of belief". 
And that is not to speak of the mountain of research that's shown that the messages we consume via mass media affect our beliefs.

That's what I meant. The fact that people are black, from the ghetto, and poor doesn't automatically make their music theologically sound.

And yes, I do listen to hiphop. I'm quite a fan. You know there's plenty of Catholic hiphop out there to listen to? I'm sure you do. I didn't suggest you stop listening to Lecrae or other non-Catholic hiphop entirely, only that you become aware of how such music may influence your beliefs without your realizing it, and that you study more about Catholicism to ensure that doesn't happen.

 

The first video I posted titled Church Clothes is talking about the hypocrisy of someone who dresses really nice for Church yet would judge someone who they deem to be under dressed. Also it deals with the self righteous holier then thou attitude of a lot of Christians. I've been lucky to never experience being judged (that I was made aware of) in real life as a Catholic for how I dressed. I've always found Mass to be very welcoming and come as you are is practiced and put into practice by people at Mass. I've always counted this as one of the good things of being Catholic. I get that you should look nice and put together when you go to Mass. But how you're dressed doesn't equate to how much you love God or how good of a job you're doing. It's your heart and only God can read it and know if you're doing things right or failing miserably. Luckily I'm wise and humble enough to know when God looks at me He instantly judges me as failing miserably. Me being dressed to the nines doesn't change that. Thank God for Confession and His Mercy. If everything fell on me and how good I do things I wouldn't have a chance. Luckily that's not how it works. Take care.

You may benefit from this, posted in the "Effeminacy" thread:

St. Thomas also speaks on modesty concerning the outward movements of the body.  Here, he quotes Saint Ambrose in stating that, “Beauty of conduct consists in becoming
behavior towards others, according to their sex and person.”  Thomas states that, “Outward movements are a sign of the inward disposition” and quotes Ecclesiastics 19:29-30, “You can tell a person by his appearance … the way a person dresses, the way he laughs, the way he walks, tell you what he is.”  St. Ambrose adds that, “The habit of mind is seen in the gesture of the body,” and that “the body’s movement is an index of the soul.”  Ambrose goes on to say, “Let nature guide the movement: if nature fail in any respect, surely effort will supply the defect.” 

No, you cannot immediately know a person's inward disposition simply by observing how they are dressed one Sunday at Mass. And dressing well for Mass does not necessarily mean a person is well disposed toward God inwardly. But someone who consistently comes to Mass in the same clothes s/he wears to the gym or the Farmer's Market is probably not thinking about how every single thing s/he does—including dress—should honor God. And that does tell you something about a person's inward disposition.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Gabriela

[Guest]

Good post. Will check out that link. Thank you.

[Catlick]

Back before the Second Vatican Council, civility was highly regarded in civil society. You would certainly not wear t-shirts with annoying texts; men didn't even wear t-shirts, underclass men generally wearing a tie outside work. The general attitude was that you shouldn't invade the world of other people with your personal preferences. Watch series like Downton Abbey and you'll see that people went great ways to prevent annoying, embarassing etc. other people in public. This was charity applied to public life, and thus part of Christian civilization. 

Also people didn't yet believe that 'being myself' is The Most Important Thing in the World. At work they were primarily employees, at home primarily fathers/mothers, in Church primarily sons/daughters of God. They represented something greater than themselves, and dressed to that. This was humility applied to public life, and thus also part of Christian civilization. 

I think the whole 'I wear what I like because God loves me anyway' is wrong not only because it supposes God is a cosmic social worker, but also because it ignores the social aspect of clothes and does not inspire to civility, charity, and humility. 

 

 

[Guest]

Ahhh Civil society how I wish we could go back. Back when blacks couldn't vote or drink from the same water fountain. Those  were the days.

[dominicansoul]

Ahhh Civil society how I wish we could go back. Back when blacks couldn't vote or drink from the same water fountain. Those  were the days.

But they dressed really nice for church...

[Gabriela]

Good post. Will check out that link. Thank you.

Excellent! I love FOCUS talks, and have WAY too many downloaded in my iTunes.  

Check out this one first: http://www.focusequip.org/discover/the-catholic-life/virtue/father-mike-schmitz-goodgod-badmedia.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/

I thought it was amesome! 

[Not The Philosopher]

I feel like this thread deserves its own subforum by this point; it's broken off into so many different directions.

[MarysLittleFlower]

God bless Gabreila. I hope you're well. I've learned a lot since I've came to Phatmass and I have no problem with continuing to learn more. Its why i come here. Although if you're insinuating that a person like Catlick is someone I should be learning from no thanks. People like him do a great disservice to the Catholic faith and push people away from it. I'm doing the "bare minimum"? Okay if you say so I don't even really disagree. Thankfully at the end of the day I'm saved by grace through faith not by works unless I would be tempted to boast on how much I'm doing to earn God's approval. What exactly do you suggest that I be doing ? Going to a Latin Mass? Watching Voris Church Militant videos and reading material from his website?  Or giving more to the poor and helping those in need? If you say the latter I totally agree. As far as changing what music I listen to why would I do that? Do you have a problem with hip hop? You realize most of these hip hop artist are black and grew up in the ghetto and in poverty? They have been underprivileged their whole lives and they are using their God given gift. Why would I stop listening to Lecrae? Are you familiar with his music? Give me some things you find troubling about it. If you're not familiar with it then I think you should familiarize yourself with it before you tell me I shouldn't listen to it and that it's harming my faith. The first video I posted titled Church Clothes is talking about the hypocrisy of someone who dresses really nice for Church yet would judge someone who they deem to be under dressed. Also it deals with the self righteous holier then thou attitude of a lot of Christians. I've been lucky to never experience being judged (that I was made aware of) in real life as a Catholic for how I dressed. I've always found Mass to be very welcoming and come as you are is practiced and put into practice by people at Mass. I've always counted this as one of the good things of being Catholic. I get that you should look nice and put together when you go to Mass. But how you're dressed doesn't equate to how much you love God or how good of a job you're doing. It's your heart and only God can read it and know if you're doing things right or failing miserably. Luckily I'm wise and humble enough to know when God looks at me He instantly judges me as failing miserably. Me being dressed to the nines doesn't change that. Thank God for Confession and His Mercy. If everything fell on me and how good I do things I wouldn't have a chance. Luckily that's not how it works. Take care.

Josh I'm pretty sure Trent said we are not saved by grace through *faith alone* but by grace when we cooperate with it by faith and works.

I know Protestants say that makes us rely on works over God and boast, but the reason it actually doesn't is because we are not putting works over grace. Protestants speak as if salvation by grace can only be faith alone but don't you cooperate with grace to believe? So thats already you cooperating. We aren't saved passively.

This doesn't mean we boast of works. If I'll be saved its because of God's Mercy. But we cooperate through faith and works to receive grace. How can we claim to love God if we don't do His Will?

Protestants are wrong to think that we earn salvation if we believe in accepting God's grace by letting it transform us to love for God - which includes works of cooperation. If we accept one grace it leads to more graces but we accept throgh cooperation not only intellectual assent that stops at itself. Faith is more than assent: it leads to works like acts of trust and love.

As for clothing etc... Why can't a person see their outward reality as an expression of the interior, while focusing on the interior and not judging others? thinking that people who want to be outwardly pious are all Pharisees - isn't that actually a judgement of them?

The problem with Pharisees wasnt caring about externals but not caring about the interior reality. A person can use externals as a sign of an interior reality while focusing on the spiritual. That actually is more Catholic because the physical is meant to be in harmony with the spiritual. Its like an expression of it. 

Ahhh Civil society how I wish we could go back. Back when blacks couldn't vote or drink from the same water fountain. Those  were the days.

an age could have something good and something bad about it. 

[Guest]

I'm saved by grace through my faith in Jesus Christ. My works give evidence of my faith and that I have a relationship with God through Christ. First and foremost though it's unmerited grace that saves me through faith. There's nothing I can do to earn that absolutely free gift from God.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Guest

[Catlick]

I'm saved by grace through my faith in Jesus Christ. My works give evidence of my faith and that I have a relationship with God through Christ. First and foremost it's unmerited grace that saves me through my faith. There's nothing I can do to earn that absolutely gift from God.

I understand that the relationship between faith and grace is hard to understand - St. Paul's writings on it in the Letter to the Romans are certainly among the more difficult parts of the Bible. But even without studying theology a Catholic can and should understand that we are not saved by grace alone and that good works are not merely evidence. This idea of sola gratia is not Catholic, it is Protestant. 

I recommend Fundamentals of the Faith for you. Its author Peter Kreeft is a Catholic convert who has lots of sympathy for a Protestant like C.S. Lewis, but strongly defends the Church's teachings on faith and grace. By contrasting Catholic teaching with Protestant teaching and atheism, it shows our Faith in interesting light. 

http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Faith-Essays-Christian-Apologetics/dp/089870202X

[MarysLittleFlower]

I'm saved by grace through my faith in Jesus Christ. My works give evidence of my faith and that I have a relationship with God through Christ. First and foremost it's unmerited grace that saves me through my faith. There's nothing I can do to earn that absolutely gift from God.

Josh I recommend you learn more about the Catholic teaching on this because your statement is too much like "faith alone" which was actually condemned. I hope this isn't confusing to you... But try to see the non-faith-alone view as a cooperation rather than "I earned my salvation myself". We are saved by grace, while cooperating with that grace. If we dont cooperate we are not accepting it because God doesnt force it on us.

We cooperate by receiving and acting upon graces to believe and to love God. Love for God is not passive but active. I don't mean some particular actions though they are based on charity like Our Lord gave examples to help the poor. Essentially the works are just loving God in truth rather than only in word or feeling. Doing His Will. Its all grace not only believing, because believing includes love and love includes actions. Protestantism tries to separate everything... it teaches that righteousness is imputed to us but the Church teaches its infused. The grace of faith comes with other graces and our works come from grace too, they are not all our own without God's help. 

Edited August 3, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Guest]

So you're telling me I'm not SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH AND NOT WORKS ? 

So basically to be a faithful Catholic and not a anathema I have to believe this Bible Verse doesn't mean what it says it does    Ephesians 2:8-9

 

For it is by grace you have been saved,through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—  not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

Edited August 3, 2015 by Guest

[MarysLittleFlower]

I added to my post and changed it in ways take a look:

Josh I recommend you learn more about the Catholic teaching on this because your statement is too much like "faith alone" which was actually condemned. I hope this isn't confusing to you... But try to see the non-faith-alone view as a cooperation rather than "I earned my salvation myself". We are saved by grace, while cooperating with that grace. If we dont cooperate we are not accepting it because God doesnt force it on us.

We cooperate by receiving and acting upon graces to believe and to love God. Love for God is not passive but active. I don't mean some particular actions though they are based on charity like Our Lord gave examples to help the poor. Essentially the works are just loving God in truth rather than only in word or feeling. Doing His Will. 

Its all grace not only believing, because believing includes love and love includes actions. Protestantism tries to separate everything... it teaches that righteousness is imputed to us but the Church teaches its infused. The grace of faith comes with other graces and our works come from grace too, they are not all our own without God's help. 

When you go to Confession think of your cooperation with grace: you agree to believe in Jesus, which is faith, then you accept the grace of faith in the Sacrament and God's Mercy, then you put that faith into action by cooperating with the grace to repent and say your sins. Its allfrom grace not only the faithpart.

"Faith alone" denies that the works are connected to grace also. God helped you not only to believe but to repent and make an act of contrition too and to confess. All is grace. Faith is necessary but its like a chain leading to more graces - all need to be cooperated with. By believing we do God's Will too, believing is actually a work too since it includes acts of trust. Works express faith. Exterior expresses interior. 

[Guest]

Edited August 3, 2015 by Guest