Fr. Ripperger: NeoCatholicism vs. Traditionalism

[dominicansoul]

Ahhh Civil society how I wish we could go back. Back when blacks couldn't vote or drink from the same water fountain. Those  were the days.

But they dressed really nice for church...

[Gabriela]

Good post. Will check out that link. Thank you.

Excellent! I love FOCUS talks, and have WAY too many downloaded in my iTunes.  

Check out this one first: http://www.focusequip.org/discover/the-catholic-life/virtue/father-mike-schmitz-goodgod-badmedia.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/

I thought it was amesome! 

[Not The Philosopher]

I feel like this thread deserves its own subforum by this point; it's broken off into so many different directions.

[MarysLittleFlower]

God bless Gabreila. I hope you're well. I've learned a lot since I've came to Phatmass and I have no problem with continuing to learn more. Its why i come here. Although if you're insinuating that a person like Catlick is someone I should be learning from no thanks. People like him do a great disservice to the Catholic faith and push people away from it. I'm doing the "bare minimum"? Okay if you say so I don't even really disagree. Thankfully at the end of the day I'm saved by grace through faith not by works unless I would be tempted to boast on how much I'm doing to earn God's approval. What exactly do you suggest that I be doing ? Going to a Latin Mass? Watching Voris Church Militant videos and reading material from his website?  Or giving more to the poor and helping those in need? If you say the latter I totally agree. As far as changing what music I listen to why would I do that? Do you have a problem with hip hop? You realize most of these hip hop artist are black and grew up in the ghetto and in poverty? They have been underprivileged their whole lives and they are using their God given gift. Why would I stop listening to Lecrae? Are you familiar with his music? Give me some things you find troubling about it. If you're not familiar with it then I think you should familiarize yourself with it before you tell me I shouldn't listen to it and that it's harming my faith. The first video I posted titled Church Clothes is talking about the hypocrisy of someone who dresses really nice for Church yet would judge someone who they deem to be under dressed. Also it deals with the self righteous holier then thou attitude of a lot of Christians. I've been lucky to never experience being judged (that I was made aware of) in real life as a Catholic for how I dressed. I've always found Mass to be very welcoming and come as you are is practiced and put into practice by people at Mass. I've always counted this as one of the good things of being Catholic. I get that you should look nice and put together when you go to Mass. But how you're dressed doesn't equate to how much you love God or how good of a job you're doing. It's your heart and only God can read it and know if you're doing things right or failing miserably. Luckily I'm wise and humble enough to know when God looks at me He instantly judges me as failing miserably. Me being dressed to the nines doesn't change that. Thank God for Confession and His Mercy. If everything fell on me and how good I do things I wouldn't have a chance. Luckily that's not how it works. Take care.

Josh I'm pretty sure Trent said we are not saved by grace through *faith alone* but by grace when we cooperate with it by faith and works.

I know Protestants say that makes us rely on works over God and boast, but the reason it actually doesn't is because we are not putting works over grace. Protestants speak as if salvation by grace can only be faith alone but don't you cooperate with grace to believe? So thats already you cooperating. We aren't saved passively.

This doesn't mean we boast of works. If I'll be saved its because of God's Mercy. But we cooperate through faith and works to receive grace. How can we claim to love God if we don't do His Will?

Protestants are wrong to think that we earn salvation if we believe in accepting God's grace by letting it transform us to love for God - which includes works of cooperation. If we accept one grace it leads to more graces but we accept throgh cooperation not only intellectual assent that stops at itself. Faith is more than assent: it leads to works like acts of trust and love.

As for clothing etc... Why can't a person see their outward reality as an expression of the interior, while focusing on the interior and not judging others? thinking that people who want to be outwardly pious are all Pharisees - isn't that actually a judgement of them?

The problem with Pharisees wasnt caring about externals but not caring about the interior reality. A person can use externals as a sign of an interior reality while focusing on the spiritual. That actually is more Catholic because the physical is meant to be in harmony with the spiritual. Its like an expression of it. 

Ahhh Civil society how I wish we could go back. Back when blacks couldn't vote or drink from the same water fountain. Those  were the days.

an age could have something good and something bad about it. 

[Guest]

I'm saved by grace through my faith in Jesus Christ. My works give evidence of my faith and that I have a relationship with God through Christ. First and foremost though it's unmerited grace that saves me through faith. There's nothing I can do to earn that absolutely free gift from God.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Guest

[Catlick]

I'm saved by grace through my faith in Jesus Christ. My works give evidence of my faith and that I have a relationship with God through Christ. First and foremost it's unmerited grace that saves me through my faith. There's nothing I can do to earn that absolutely gift from God.

I understand that the relationship between faith and grace is hard to understand - St. Paul's writings on it in the Letter to the Romans are certainly among the more difficult parts of the Bible. But even without studying theology a Catholic can and should understand that we are not saved by grace alone and that good works are not merely evidence. This idea of sola gratia is not Catholic, it is Protestant. 

I recommend Fundamentals of the Faith for you. Its author Peter Kreeft is a Catholic convert who has lots of sympathy for a Protestant like C.S. Lewis, but strongly defends the Church's teachings on faith and grace. By contrasting Catholic teaching with Protestant teaching and atheism, it shows our Faith in interesting light. 

http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Faith-Essays-Christian-Apologetics/dp/089870202X

[MarysLittleFlower]

I'm saved by grace through my faith in Jesus Christ. My works give evidence of my faith and that I have a relationship with God through Christ. First and foremost it's unmerited grace that saves me through my faith. There's nothing I can do to earn that absolutely gift from God.

Josh I recommend you learn more about the Catholic teaching on this because your statement is too much like "faith alone" which was actually condemned. I hope this isn't confusing to you... But try to see the non-faith-alone view as a cooperation rather than "I earned my salvation myself". We are saved by grace, while cooperating with that grace. If we dont cooperate we are not accepting it because God doesnt force it on us.

We cooperate by receiving and acting upon graces to believe and to love God. Love for God is not passive but active. I don't mean some particular actions though they are based on charity like Our Lord gave examples to help the poor. Essentially the works are just loving God in truth rather than only in word or feeling. Doing His Will. Its all grace not only believing, because believing includes love and love includes actions. Protestantism tries to separate everything... it teaches that righteousness is imputed to us but the Church teaches its infused. The grace of faith comes with other graces and our works come from grace too, they are not all our own without God's help. 

Edited August 3, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Guest]

So you're telling me I'm not SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH AND NOT WORKS ? 

So basically to be a faithful Catholic and not a anathema I have to believe this Bible Verse doesn't mean what it says it does    Ephesians 2:8-9

 

For it is by grace you have been saved,through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—  not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

Edited August 3, 2015 by Guest

[MarysLittleFlower]

I added to my post and changed it in ways take a look:

Josh I recommend you learn more about the Catholic teaching on this because your statement is too much like "faith alone" which was actually condemned. I hope this isn't confusing to you... But try to see the non-faith-alone view as a cooperation rather than "I earned my salvation myself". We are saved by grace, while cooperating with that grace. If we dont cooperate we are not accepting it because God doesnt force it on us.

We cooperate by receiving and acting upon graces to believe and to love God. Love for God is not passive but active. I don't mean some particular actions though they are based on charity like Our Lord gave examples to help the poor. Essentially the works are just loving God in truth rather than only in word or feeling. Doing His Will. 

Its all grace not only believing, because believing includes love and love includes actions. Protestantism tries to separate everything... it teaches that righteousness is imputed to us but the Church teaches its infused. The grace of faith comes with other graces and our works come from grace too, they are not all our own without God's help. 

When you go to Confession think of your cooperation with grace: you agree to believe in Jesus, which is faith, then you accept the grace of faith in the Sacrament and God's Mercy, then you put that faith into action by cooperating with the grace to repent and say your sins. Its allfrom grace not only the faithpart.

"Faith alone" denies that the works are connected to grace also. God helped you not only to believe but to repent and make an act of contrition too and to confess. All is grace. Faith is necessary but its like a chain leading to more graces - all need to be cooperated with. By believing we do God's Will too, believing is actually a work too since it includes acts of trust. Works express faith. Exterior expresses interior. 

[Guest]

Edited August 3, 2015 by Guest

[Nihil Obstat]

Faith without works is dead.

 

[16] And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? [17] So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. [18] But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. [19] Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22]Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? [25] And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

[26] For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead

[Guest]

I believe faith without works is dead. But I'm saved firstly by grace through my faith in Jesus Christ.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Guest

[MarysLittleFlower]

Josh,

You are misunderstanding.. You are confusing grace with faith alone. * Works come from grace too.* that's how Protestants speak about it: as if faith alone is by grace and with works its no longer by grace. But works are the result of grace and are not our own only.

The Protestant view treats works as something to boast of by separating them from grace. We are saved by grace when we cooperate through faith that is not alone but LIVED OUT. Not living out faith is not a cooperation with it.

As for the verse no one is rejecting it. We don't save ourselves without God. We don't earn it, its a gift that we receive. But we receive through cooperation which is a lived out faith. Faith by definition is not "alone". It's a living thing that is expressed or else its dead. 

I believe faith without works is dead. But I'm saved firstly by grace through my faith in Jesus Christ.

you are saved by grace that you receive through a living faith. What is a living faith? It includes works as a form of cooperation that is still connected to grace. That's why its not faith alone. There's no such thing as faith alone because it must be lived out to be a true reception and cooperation with grace. I hope it makes sense how this is not at all thinking you can earn salvation. We don't rely on the works but the grace. We receive the grace through a lived out real faith not bare intellectual assent with no repentance or love, which are works. Repentance is a work that is an expression of faith and comes from grace. 

[Seven77]

I think its better--and accurate--to say, by the grace of God alone, we are saved through faith and works---faith manifested in works.

[Nihil Obstat]

Interestingly, the precise concern earlier was regarding the unintentional internalizing of Protestant theology. Seems that such a concern is not misplaced.

[Seven77]

Interestingly, the precise concern earlier was regarding the unintentional internalizing of Protestant theology. Seems that such a concern is not misplaced.

The problem isn't "neo-Catholics," the problem is poor catechesis...

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think its better--and accurate--to say, by the grace of God alone, we are saved through faith and works---faith manifested in works. 

let me know what you think of: we are saved by grace when we cooperate with it through a lived out faith (believing and acting on it). Its grace that saves. We just need to actively receive it for it to be applied to us. It doesn't mean the cooperation is the actual source but its necessary in order to to benefit from the source. 

You'll have the Catholic position if you put these Trent canons together  

If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema

If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone,[114] meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema

 

I recommend this whole link:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/trent6.htm

Canon 12 I think means that justifying faith includes dispositions and cooperations like repentance, contrition etc. Its basically saying that justifying faith must include works like repentance and any work to cooperate with grace, and only belief is not enough.

Edited August 3, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Seven77]

let me know what you think of: we are saved by grace when we cooperate with it through a lived out faith (believing and acting on it). Its grace that saves. We just need to actively receive it for it to be applied to us. It doesn't mean the cooperation is the actual source but its necessary in order to to benefit from the source. 

You'll have the Catholic position if you put these Trent canons together  

If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema

If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone,[114] meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema

 

I recommend this whole link:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/trent6.htm

Canon 12 I think means that justifying faith includes dispositions and cooperations like repentance, contrition etc. Its basically saying that justifying faith must include works like repentance and any work to cooperate with grace, and only belief is not enough.

Sure. But its a whole lot fewer words to put it the way i did.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Protestant position: if you believe that's all you need. But: if ALL you have is belief... Then you are not repenting. Repentance is a work of the will. Do we need to repent? Yes. So: we need more than just belief. So: its not faith alone. Its just reasonable. Otherwise you're essentially rejecting repentance and good dispositions for Confession, which are necessary. Salvation = grace which is received by cooperation not faith separated from everything. It doesn't mean we are justified by works. Works are for reception of grace and to let it transform us.

[Gabriela]

The problem isn't "neo-Catholics," the problem is poor catechesis...

Good, important distinction. Super props.