Fr. Ripperger: NeoCatholicism vs. Traditionalism

[Gabriela]

Is that possible on any forum anywhere?

Where are these magical non-discursive, stay-on-topic forums I keep hearing about?!

In the "Serious Intellectual Discussion Only" subphorum we need to have.

[Anomaly]

In the "Serious Intellectual Discussion Only" subphorum we need to have.

the original Lame Board was created to keep the Inane post away from attempts at an intelligent conversation.  That failed rather quickly. But the lane board still remains it's just underutilized.

[Credo in Deum]

In the "Serious Intellectual Discussion Only" subphorum we need to have.

Transmundane Lane.

[Gabriela]

Transmundane Lane.

Could we then purge this thread of the off-topic posts and move it to the TL?

[Nihil Obstat]

 

Transmundane Lane.

I think the no debating rule should be relaxed on that board.

[Credo in Deum]

Could we then purge this thread of the off-topic posts and move it to the TL?

Meh.

 

I think the no debating rule should be relaxed on that board.

Meh.

[Nihil Obstat]

Meh.

[veritasluxmea]

ten pages later and I still don't know what a neocatholic is. 

Edited August 1, 2015 by veritasluxmea

[Aragon]

I really find articles like this to be a massive distraction from the far more important priorities of evangelising and caring for the poor (you know, the two things Jesus told us to do before He ascended into heaven). 

There are so many people who do not know God. There are so many people who suffer from poverty (both material and spiritual). There are so many things that we should be focusing on our time and energy on. Very few people have the luxury of sitting around and engaging in arm chair theology.

[Nihil Obstat]

 

I really find articles like this to be a massive distraction from the far more important priorities of evangelising and caring for the poor (you know, the two things Jesus told us to do before He ascended into heaven). 

There are so many people who do not know God. There are so many people who suffer from poverty (both material and spiritual). There are so many things that we should be focusing on our time and energy on. Very few people have the luxury of sitting around and engaging in arm chair theology.

Well. Modernism is pretty ambivalent on the actual, practical necessity of evangelization. There is really no sense in which your average traditional Catholic layperson sits around doing armchair theology at the expense of corporal and spiritual works of mercy. That is just not the reality of the situation.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Credo, the thing is free masonry in it's completeness is a heresy, protestantism isnt and nore is buddihsm but protestantism contains more of the truth than buddhism and the holy roman catholic church more than any actually the holy roman catholic church contains the whole truth in it's completeness. Holy mother church teaches this in the catechsim, not the free mason bit but the rest of what i have declared.

Tab - Protestantism has various heresies and anything they have right in theology (like Christ being God) they got from the Catholic Church. 

Protestantism is hersey aka almost all black people who are Christians really don't know God aka Saved by Grace through Faith in Catholicism really doesn't count for much.

Josh I don't understand why when we are talking about Protestantism you say we are talking about black people. Firstly there are black Catholics. Secondly the reason we disagree with Protestantism is theological not race related.

Thirdly no one is commenting on their relationship with God. We are talking about ideas in their theology. Did I believe in God and try to love Him as a Protestant? Yes. Was I agreeing with some Protestant heresies? Yes. The reason I recognised God's voice calling me to Catholicism is because I had a relationship with Him already but I was also sinning in ways by holding on to heretical ideas especially when I felt I should leave, so i wasn't fully ignorant.

Since I can't know where other people are we are not talking about ideas. But I don't think we can assume that all Protestants are invincibly ignorant (we just can't say who is who) and we can't say Protestantism itself leads to salvation. Just because we can't assume immediate salvation for non Catholics doesn't mean we judge them.

By the way we don't assume salvation for ourselves either! Of course though we do believe salvation comes through the Church and that we are receiving help and we can reasonably believe to be in a state of grace. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

 

It ties together. Catlick has made racist post in the past. I'm not going to go search for them. One of them I remember was that it's okay for white business owners to only hire white people. There are other statements too. How it ties together with this is that most black people who identify as Christian aren't Catholic. So when you go saying a bunch of negative things about their faith n beliefs and you add the racist remarks she/he has said in the past it's not cool. If you can't see this or don't agree with me that's fine. I don't really care. I've seen racism my whole life. It started in 2nd grade when my black friend got called the n word repeatedly on the bus. I'm really over self righteous pharisee Catholics who want to take about all of the Black Christians and equate their faith in Christ to heresy. Why would black people even want to convert when a whole bunch of Catholics go on and on about how great the Confederate flag is. I believe the Catholic Church holds the full truth but thus kind of stuff tempts me to find a non denominational church where black and white people worship God together. 

not all Catholics talk about the race issue though .. In my parish we have both races. I never posted any Confederate flag but I'm Canadian. I think whatever people say about race here - that doesn't reflect on the Church as a whole. The Church isnt a political American entity..

.

Tab - I think what he is saying is every Baptism is a grace from the Church even for non Catholics. If someone is baptized as a baby in a non Catholic community they aren't guilty of heresy unless later they actually believe a heresy knowingly and willfully - but the level or presence of personal guilt we don't determine. 

[Guest]

Josh I don't understand why when we are talking about Protestantism you say we are talking about black people. Firstly there are black Catholics. Secondly the reason we disagree with Protestantism is theological not race related.

Thirdly no one is commenting on their relationship with God. We are talking about ideas in their theology. Did I believe in God and try to love Him as a Protestant? Yes. Was I agreeing with some Protestant heresies? Yes. The reason I recognised God's voice calling me to Catholicism is because I had a relationship with Him already but I was also sinning in ways by holding on to heretical ideas especially when I felt I should leave, so i wasn't fully ignorant.

Since I can't know where other people are we are not talking about ideas. But I don't think we can assume that all Protestants are invincibly ignorant (we just can't say who is who) and we can't say Protestantism itself leads to salvation. Just because we can't assume immediate salvation for non Catholics doesn't mean we judge them.

By the way we don't assume salvation for ourselves either! Of course though we do believe salvation comes through the Church and that we are receiving help and we can reasonably believe to be in a state of grace. 

I get what you're saying. I understand Nihi or most others aren't singling out black Christians. All I'm saying from my understanding most black Christians aren't Catholic. So when someone like Catlick makes racist comments or someone who goes on and on about how great the Confederate flag is attacks Protestantism and how awful it is it looks suspect in my book. The Bible repeatedly says over and over we are saved by grace through our faith in Jesus Christ. I get that isn't the "complete truth" but it's a good part of it. God isn't mocked and faith without works is dead. So I understand the error in once saved always saved. You can't just believe then do whatever and have blind hope you're going to Heaven. Some Catholics take it to the opposite extreme though and act as if we have no idea if we're going to end up in hell. The Bible tells us in John we can KNOW we will be saved and have eternal life. God will never forsake us. If you walk with Him and live in love and repent you can have confidence in your salvation. All I'm saying is there are a good portion of sincere non Catholic Christians who love God and a good majority of black Christians don't identify as Catholic. To equate their faith in Christ to just simply heresy is messed up in my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong. It won't be the first time nor the last. But either way there are a bunch of great Christians who are a great witness to God and his love who don't identify as Catholic. And I find when they are discounted right from the jump for simply not being Catholic it's a problem. The sincere non Catholics love God just as much as sincere Catholics do. And God loves them just as much not less.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Guest

[Gabriela]

I really find articles like this to be a massive distraction from the far more important priorities of evangelising and caring for the poor (you know, the two things Jesus told us to do before He ascended into heaven). 

There are so many people who do not know God. There are so many people who suffer from poverty (both material and spiritual). There are so many things that we should be focusing on our time and energy on. Very few people have the luxury of sitting around and engaging in arm chair theology.

Again, that is a red herring. The two are not mutually exclusive, and we need both. After all, when the flood of converts to the Catholic Faith comes pouring in as a result of the unceasing efforts of our brethren to evangelize the lost masses (), what are those new converts going to believe? That's what we're discussing.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Gabriela

[Guest]

and we can't say Protestantism itself leads to salvation. 

Faith in Jesus Christ leads to salvation. Being Protestant doesn't in itself lead to salvation anymore then being Catholic leads to salvation. A sincere faith in Christ that leads to a life of love and repentance leads to salvation.

It's funny how the Mediator of Meh edits my comment and calls me out for calling Catlick a racist yet just deletes the post of the racist picture he/she posted. Why don't you chastise him/ her the same way you did me? Why just delete their post so no one even knows it was posted?

It's funny how the Mediator of Meh edits my comment and calls me out for calling Catlick a racist yet just deletes the post of the racist picture he/she posted. Why don't you chastise him/ her the same way you did me? Why just delete their post so no one even knows it was posted?

 

 

[dominicansoul]

I didn't read every word of the article, and I'm probably wrong, but I feel this is what the priest is getting at...

 

A few months ago, I was driving home from a Saturday Evening Vigil Mass with my 90 year old dad...He sat very quietly for a bit as I drove down the highway....

It seemed to me he was very upset about something so I asked him what was the matter...

"I am not sure...but...was that a Catholic Mass?  Where is the Church today?  Is God pleased with what we offer Him?  Sometimes I feel we aren't Catholic anymore and that anything goes..."

 

All my life, my father has lamented the state of the Church after Vatican II.  He's not one of these sedavacantists break-away "i belong to the last remnant of the True Church" types... but he definitely sympathizes with their struggle...and for good reason, because somewhere along the way, in our modern Church, we have lost touch with the Splendor of God.  We have lost sense of the Majesty of God.  We have lost all reverence to what is Sacred about God.  And until our Liturgies go back to addressing God as He Truly IS in all His Majestic Glory of the Church, we will continue to have lukewarm parishes.  

 

I think this is probably what this priest is getting at, that somewhere between all the in-fighting and heterodox philosophies that seem to strangle members of our Church, we've lost touch with an authentic worship of God.  The Mass we attended is pretty conservative, granted, it had the same marks of the post-Vatican experimentation (such as excessive use of "Extraordinary Ministers" of the Eucharist, no silence after Holy Communion but "announcements" and blessings of those celebrating various milestones in their lives.)  But it left me and my dad with a feeling that somehow, it isn't enough for God, that we are only giving Him our least and not our most...   Once the Church comes back to the an authentic Catholic worship of God in their parishes will you see a revival of zeal and less ignorance...

 

I think in all honestly we can "label" people only in the way Christ Himself did, you either have those who are burning with zeal for Him, or the lukewarm.  Sadly, in today's Catholic Church, I would say the majority is lukewarm.... especially in what I've witnessed in my own parish, where knowledge of the Faith is extremely low, and apathy runs rampant.  I'm talking about the adults, so you can imagine how their children are.  Their poor kids are every bit as culturally secular as you can be... (in other words, they support everything contrary to Church teaching that is in fashion these days....)  And when you try to teach them what the Church says about these issues, they come away with a complete rejection of that teaching because they have been infused with the culture around them.

...and about Protestantism...I think that's most of the Church's problem after Vatican II... it tried to be too Protestant in its worship, and look where we are today... and Protestant worship service is nothing compared to the Liturgy of the Eucharist, but because of all the changes in the Liturgy where the focus came off the central Figure of the Body of Christ and upon us being the Body of Christ, Catholics have lost sense of all the Sacredness present at Mass...We have forgotten that Heaven itself joins us in our worship, (I tried teaching this at my parish and they thought I was delusional.)   I can't help but think the saints in heaven cringe at how we celebrate Mass sometimes... giving God our least instead of our most...

[Guest]

I hate this new feature where it combines post.

Credo I hope you start doing a better job as a Mediator of Meh. Your bias is showing to much. Not cool.

So everyone is Lukewarm except the few really really good Catholics? Gotcha.

So dominicansoul everyone is Lukewarm except the few really really good Catholics? Gotcha.

Screw this new feature lol

I hate this new feature where it combines post.

Credo I hope you start doing a better job as a Mediator of Meh. Your bias is showing to much. Not cool.

So everyone is Lukewarm except the few really really good Catholics? Gotcha.

So dominicansoul everyone is Lukewarm except the few really really good Catholics? Gotcha.

Screw this new combing post feature lol

What is going on with Phatmass? 

[Guest]

It's combining post and quoting stuff I didn't quote and doubling what I wrote.

[Ash Wednesday]

Don't look at me, I just got here. 

Quite frankly, if I catch anyone posting a racist picture even in jest again, I will ban them for a month. I have no tolerance for that kind of garbage.

[Guest]

No talking about Credo. I get called out for calling Catlick a racist yet the first racist photo Catlick post just gets conveniently deleted so no one can see it was ever posted. Not edited with a warning just completely deleted.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Guest