Fr. Ripperger: NeoCatholicism vs. Traditionalism

[Nihil Obstat]

Would that be primarily on the shoulders of your parish? Or would you think it should be the job of higher education or some such entity. I for one (as well as many many others) did not study theology in college simply because I didnt have the interest but also it is expensive. Not everyone has the luxury to afford an education these days and its only getting worse.

All of the above and more. Parishes need to revitalize the Liturgy. No more experimenting, no more fiddling. Legitimate sacred music. Processions, big parish events on feast days, real organized support for members of the parish in their marriages, for the children, to help those who are struggling financially. Return to authenticity. Children need to be better educated in the faith. Start in the families, but much stronger in the schools all through their primary and secondary education. Most school religion programs are a joke and probably do more harm than good. Have more priests in the schools.
And then more and better involvement in higher education. Back to the customs of great, faithful theological schools, supported intimately by the Church. And weed out the hetereodoxy rather than letting it fester over generations, as we have done. Have more sponsorship and support available for vocations, and encourage them often and early. Even bring back the minor seminary in the stronger urban areas.

But all of this takes time and money, none of which we will get without more support from the laity. And the laity will not be there in numbers without revitalization, so it is a terrible circle. Therefore it will have to start small. Start in the parishes and in the families where a few dedicated people can make real differences. And then it must build from there, rather than being content with small successes. Have major processions on Corpus Christi and important feast days. Then a few years down the road get permission for a procession to go to the cathedral and end in a solemn Mass there. Next year have some of the deanery involved in the procession, and the next year finish with a pontifical Mass at the cathedral.
The young families in the parish sponsor and support weekly catechism classes for their children. In a few years get another priest or two involved and bring it to a few nearby parishes. Whatever it takes.

But really, whatever it takes to reclaim our authentic Catholic culture. Because it is clear now that at least from the 60s to now we have profoundly failed in nearly every respect.

And it goes without saying that all of this can be linked to the Liturgy. None of this can possibly happen with banal or sacrilegious Masses in so many of our local parishes. How can we expect Catholics to be faithful and committed if the priests who are their only point of contact with the Church are not even faithful and committed to the inconceivable gift they have been given, and the grave responsibilities that arise there-from?

Edited July 29, 2015 by Nihil Obstat

[MarysLittleFlower]

I agree that atheism is at least partly related to the problems in the Church. The more saints we have the more conversions... The more transformation in souls... And then more faith too. If the Church struggles with lukewarmness and if the faith is presented in a casual, watered down way that is influenced by modernism and worldly values, that would not encourage many to seek greater holiness.

That is what I think the early Church had that we are lacking - not in our actual faith which is infallible, but in the presentation. I agree with save the liturgy save the world for example. I don't think its accidental that more vocations are coming from parishes with more reverence. For instance in my FSSP parish there are more active young people than found in a typical parish. When I came there first I found I was able to grow more spiritually than elsewhere because of the reverence, emphasis on prayer, silence that encourages mental prayer that is necessary for growth.

I got used to everything being done slowly and carefully and you begincaring more about staying after Mass to pray and receive more grace through thanksgiving. Of course well catechisedpeople do this in any parish. I just think there's more of a chance that newpeoplewould get catechised quickly at a reverent parish because if the Mass is done more casually theyd needexplicit instruction (or a miracle of grace) to 'get it'. At a very reverent parish they'd understand more naturally. 

[Nihil Obstat]

As they say,

"If the parish priest is a Saint, his people will be holy; 
If the priest is holy, but not yet a Saint, his people will be good; 
If he is good, his people will be lukewarm, 
and if he is lukewarm, his parishioners will be bad. 
And if the priest himself is bad, his people will go to Hell."

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Just to add, personally I got the most from the Mass not when it was structured to explicitly instruct me but when it was primarily structured as worship towards God. The 'mystery' involved instructed me more because I was able to go deeper into prayer.

That is why I appreciate the TLM. The first time I came to one, I got there late, had no clue what's going on, everything was in Latin and I didn't have a missal, I didn't know what all the times of silence are for and what the priest was praying quietly... It was not done in a way to instruct a new person on what it is. Yet around Communion time I found myself crying and was overwhelmed with the realisation that THIS is the Catholicism I became Catholic for. The beauty, mystery and transcendence of the Mass taught me the most about what the Mass is, which formed how I ought to relate to the Mass and ultimately to God.

There was nothing casual, nothing of trying to relate it to our culture. The music was not like in any other place for instance. The times of silence, uncomfortable at first, eventually drew me into mental prayer, which completely changed my experience of the Mass. I'm not saying Novus Or do can't be done with reverence but the typical parish doesn't do it like the EWTN Mass. Its not liturgical abuse or some horrible clown liturgy we hear about.

But there's a horizontal emphasis... Gathering with others, all understanding everything in the same way... But I've found it hard to go above that unless I brought recollection with me and prepared with mental prayer. There's rarely time to do mental prayer during the Mass because everything needs to be done quickly.

Of course its valid... The Eucharist is there... I still received grace from the Eucharist... After all I became Catholic in a NO parish. God acts there too of course. But I found it harder - note not impossible, just harder - to go deeper and concentrate. Its not because of the NO itself perhaps but the way its done and the 'culture' in the church... The type of music, the horizontal element emphasised so much, people speaking after Mass in the church, the way theres less silence and everything is quicker...

At the TLM I found more of a sense that we are here to worship and adore God who comes to us - more of a vertical approach, which eventually drew me deeper into the Mass and I found I received more graces. The intrinsic merit of the two forms of the Mass is the same. And I'm not a sedevacantist who rejects post V2 everything or thinks it's all invalid. I just mean this is an example of a reverent liturgy helping one person to go deeper into spiritual things and prayer. I did before too it just took more effort though I still received graces through the Sacraments.

This is just my experience and perhaps its kind of a controversial post, but I'm not arguing against the validity of the NO... And I think this reverence could be integrated into the OF Mass which I believe Pope Benedict wanted to do. But the Summorum Pontificum was a huge blessing for this exact reason - souls can see examples of great reverence while the OF is still goingthrough transitions and varies in reverence depending on the parish. Some parishes have more reverence than others.

We'll see what happens in the future but I think the TLM movement is showing much good fruit and I hope the TLM would continue and become more known, and that it would help the OF. Of course that's not up to me at all. I'm just a layperson but this has been my experience..    

[CrossCuT]

All of the above and more. Parishes need to revitalize the Liturgy. No more experimenting, no more fiddling. Legitimate sacred music. Processions, big parish events on feast days, real organized support for members of the parish in their marriages, for the children, to help those who are struggling financially. Return to authenticity. Children need to be better educated in the faith. Start in the families, but much stronger in the schools all through their primary and secondary education. Most school religion programs are a joke and probably do more harm than good. Have more priests in the schools.
And then more and better involvement in higher education. Back to the customs of great, faithful theological schools, supported intimately by the Church. And weed out the hetereodoxy rather than letting it fester over generations, as we have done. Have more sponsorship and support available for vocations, and encourage them often and early. Even bring back the minor seminary in the stronger urban areas.

But all of this takes time and money, none of which we will get without more support from the laity. And the laity will not be there in numbers without revitalization, so it is a terrible circle. Therefore it will have to start small. Start in the parishes and in the families where a few dedicated people can make real differences. And then it must build from there, rather than being content with small successes. Have major processions on Corpus Christi and important feast days. Then a few years down the road get permission for a procession to go to the cathedral and end in a solemn Mass there. Next year have some of the deanery involved in the procession, and the next year finish with a pontifical Mass at the cathedral.
The young families in the parish sponsor and support weekly catechism classes for their children. In a few years get another priest or two involved and bring it to a few nearby parishes. Whatever it takes.

But really, whatever it takes to reclaim our authentic Catholic culture. Because it is clear now that at least from the 60s to now we have profoundly failed in nearly every respect.

And it goes without saying that all of this can be linked to the Liturgy. None of this can possibly happen with banal or sacrilegious Masses in so many of our local parishes. How can we expect Catholics to be faithful and committed if the priests who are their only point of contact with the Church are not even faithful and committed to the inconceivable gift they have been given, and the grave responsibilities that arise there-from?

Do you think any of that might sound a tad cultish? Just complete control of a persons religion governing all these educational and family aspects in their life? And you speak of the experimentation with a negative attitude but do you think that we should retain the ways and customs of centuries long past and try to continue applying them now? Social structure has changed and the purpose of these experiments would be to reconnect with people who exist in modern times. I feel like trying to appeal to modern society with very very old ways would work for some, but not all and that number is shrinking.

And if you would brush that off by saying the old ways is how it should be and everyone needs to conform to that or too bad for you, is that really in the spirit of Catholic outreach? If we are to be missionaries and fishers of men we need to know how to catch the fish with different bait or else all youll is one species of fish and neglect the others.

[MarysLittleFlower]

As they say,

"If the parish priest is a Saint, his people will be holy; 
If the priest is holy, but not yet a Saint, his people will be good; 
If he is good, his people will be lukewarm, 
and if he is lukewarm, his parishioners will be bad. 
And if the priest himself is bad, his people will go to Hell."

 

reminds me of 2 great priests I know. One is at my parish. He is a prayerful holy priest and its edifying to see him praying after Mass. The other is a priest at a NO parish I know, who appreciates the TLM and is very traditionally minded. He's a joyful but prayerful man who was placed in a typical parish that probably has a minority of very traditional people. His preaching is excellent. Even little things can help... For example artwork. The building looks like a Protestant building and was made as a "multi purpose" place for some reason. Yet some people found a way to put beautiful traditional artwork that gives a greater sense of holiness. 

Lay people can do things too... Like getting involved in the choir to introduce more sacred music. Starting a donation for good artwork. Asking the priest to start up Adoration or inviting a missionary priest to preach a parish mission or retreat. 

Also just to add about liturgy, I'm not sayig its wrong for a Mass to be understandable. But this shouldn't be the primary emphasis at the cost of worship. A TLM can be understandable with a missal and some basic instruction. A vernacular Mass can be done reverently. (I do think there are benefits to Latin and V2 actually said to keep Latin too).

Edited July 29, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Nihil Obstat]

Do you think any of that might sound a tad cultish? Just complete control of a persons religion governing all these educational and family aspects in their life? And you speak of the experimentation with a negative attitude but do you think that we should retain the ways and customs of centuries long past and try to continue applying them now? Social structure has changed and the purpose of these experiments would be to reconnect with people who exist in modern times. I feel like trying to appeal to modern society with very very old ways would work for some, but not all and that number is shrinking.

And if you would brush that off by saying the old ways is how it should be and everyone needs to conform to that or too bad for you, is that really in the spirit of Catholic outreach? If we are to be missionaries and fishers of men we need to know how to catch the fish with different bait or else all youll is one species of fish and neglect the others.

We tried the experimentation and it has been an unmitigated failure, not to mention is substantially unfaithful to the Faith that has been given to us. If our answer to complete failure is just to do more of the same, then we will simply get more of the same. Not so foreign an idea.

As to cultishness or whatever you were talking about, I do not really think there was anything there I can even respond to. No, the Church is not a controlling and evil sect which brainwashes and controls people. I see no reason to get sidetracked by spurious comments like that.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Do you think any of that might sound a tad cultish? Just complete control of a persons religion governing all these educational and family aspects in their life? And you speak of the experimentation with a negative attitude but do you think that we should retain the ways and customs of centuries long past and try to continue applying them now? Social structure has changed and the purpose of these experiments would be to reconnect with people who exist in modern times. I feel like trying to appeal to modern society with very very old ways would work for some, but not all and that number is shrinking.

And if you would brush that off by saying the old ways is how it should be and everyone needs to conform to that or too bad for you, is that really in the spirit of Catholic outreach? If we are to be missionaries and fishers of men we need to know how to catch the fish with different bait or else all youll is one species of fish and neglect the others.

it actually seems like the older emphasis on reverence and more traditional music is drawing more young people than casual Masses with guitars and drums... Because people are hungering for meaning and they are not finding it in the culture.

I don't think its wrong for the faith to influence education and family - what kind of Catholics are we if were only Catholic on Sundays? Salt that has lost its flavour is no longer fit to be used. We can't be like the world.

That is the mistake of modernism...Trying to relate to the world by being like the world. Was St Francis like his society, or St John Vianney? They were not products of their time, they went differently and drew others to the faith. We can't take the wide way to win souls... We need to take the narrow path but show others its worth taking. Sure we can be 'all things to all men' - but not at the cost of truth or worship. We don't need to bring drums into the church cause young people like drums for instance. They might like drums but it won't help them to pray in a deeper way. An interior life does more for sanctification of self *and* others than any method or program or technique

this is described in a great book called Soul of the Apostolate that I think might be VERY useful today in this age of 'activity'. 

Edited July 29, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

The way St Padre Pio saw the Mass had such an effect on me. I'd encourage anyone to look that up   http://infallible-catholic.blogspot.ca/2012/05/padre-pio-on-holy-mass.html?m=1 

 

Edited July 29, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[CrossCuT]

I disagree with equating reaching out to someone wherever they are at in their faith journey to modernism. I dont think that using methods to connect with people on all the different stages and paths they are at has to be coupled with a loss or degradation of the authenticity of the faith.

I feel like that is more along the lines of a certain superiority of person experience or preference rather than to realistic attempts to bring people to jesus.

Edited July 29, 2015 by CrossCuT

[MarysLittleFlower]

We can reach out to people where they are without making the liturgy look and sound like other things in the world... Reaching to people is more about personal contact. Liturgy is to worship God that is its primary point. He is the one who draws souls to Himself there.  Let's just let Him, and help by being good Christians and showing charity to others.

[Maggyie]

I agree. Atheism does not arise in a vacuum. The current crisis of faith in the Church is surely a major contributing factor to the explosion of atheism.

yes but is it a crisis of faith in a particular interpretation of documents? Or is it a crisis of faith in Jesus Christ? 

[KnightofChrist]

If the Liturgy is just like or very similar to the World, why leave the World in favor of the Liturgy?

yes but is it a crisis of faith in a particular interpretation of documents? Or is it a crisis of faith in Jesus Christ? 

Both. Heterodox interpretations of post Vatican II documents are numerous and lead to a crisis of faith in Christ.

[veritasluxmea]

I disagree with equating reaching out to someone wherever they are at in their faith journey to modernism. I dont think that using methods to connect with people on all the different stages and paths they are at has to be coupled with a loss or degradation of the authenticity of the faith.

I feel like that is more along the lines of a certain superiority of person experience or preference rather than to realistic attempts to bring people to jesus.

Nihil can defend himself, but I will say as someone in favor- and who actually practices- reaching out to people where they are, that's not what he's saying. Or at least not what I'm reading- experimenting with the liturgy isn't reaching out to people, unfortunately usually the opposite. Could you explain how you're getting that from his posts? Maybe we're just disagreeing on what methods should be used. 

[Guest]

yes but is it a crisis of faith in a particular interpretation of documents? Or is it a crisis of faith in Jesus Christ? 

This is not directed at you but I find it really funnny when people act like the only Christians out there are Catholic. Most of the Christians I've been/am inspired by are not Catholic. And their faith in Jesus Christ is very strong.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Guest