Thoughts On Suffering

[Nihil Obstat]

1 minute ago, Jaime said:

Nobody gets that joke.  But I truly believed if anyone would it would be you 

I have dishonoured my ancestors! 

[Spem in alium]

On 6/25/2016 at 2:05 AM, Credo in Deum said:

I'm comfortable with assiging that to God because I know any natural disaster or calamity can never be considered evil. The second one which is a result of sin I don't not blame God for because while he is in control, he is not responsible for the guilt of sin. 

Natural disasters can also be termed "natural evil". Not evil in the sense we automatically think of, but still an evil in the world.

It is our sin which brought about death. It seems from reading Genesis, and other sources, that God never meant for humanity to die. Death came into the world as a direct consequence of free will -- of choosing to go against God -- and death is a suffering. But God uses this suffering for His own purpose entirely through the salvation brought by Jesus.

I can't see God directly causing, or enjoying, our suffering or our death. I don't believe He caused two of my mother's sisters to die from cancer on the same day four years apart, leaving behind husbands and young children. I don't believe He caused my friend to suffer a serious illness for many years, or another friend to have a miscarriage this year, or one of my sisters to currently be very sick in hospital. And I don't believe He caused my own suffering. I don't know how these things come about (coincidence? natural causes? genetics? a chain of events?) but I'm very hesitant to assign them to God. 

 

Edited June 25, 2016 by Spem in alium

[Seven77]

 Credo, this is what strikes me as the correct way of looking at it: life and death are both in the hands of God, however, God actively wills life but he permits death--- there is a huge difference. Jesus transformed life and death, but he ultimately destroyed death. What happened to the Egyptians is basically an analogy of what happens to people and communities when they freely and knowingly choose to disobey God and self annihilate, kind of like reaping the consequences of promiscuity.

In the case of the Egyptians, God chose to honor pharaoh's curse in a way that he no longer does.

[Ice_nine]

On 6/24/2016 at 0:58 PM, Nihil Obstat said:

Sounds like modernism.

So, just curious, how do you reconcile the archeological, historical evidence with Biblical text if you are to take the Exodus as a historical event? Do you just give faith precedence over other forms of evidence? Do you attempt to disprove conflicting evidence? Do you just live with cognitive dissonance?

Also, I know this is a bit off topic, but how do you feel about evolution? I ask because I know you're a trad and I've seen a few websites/articles that insinuate or outright state that theistic evolution is incompatible with the Catholic faith. Almost as if it is heresy.

I know you're a cagey lad and will probably not directly answer this questions, but maybe you'll humor me eh?

@Credo in Deum I think your view of God is scary. This probably doesn't faze you. But I've heard various teachers of the faith explain that to actively will suffering is a key difference between Islamic and Christian theology. Allah in the Koran is shown as a deity who actively wills suffering, for the good of his followers or for punishment or whatever, whilst the Christian God passively wills it, meaning He tolerates it as an effect of freewill and uses it for the good of those who believe in Him.

 

[Nihil Obstat]

1 hour ago, Ice_nine said:

So, just curious, how do you reconcile the archeological, historical evidence with Biblical text if you are to take the Exodus as a historical event? Do you just give faith precedence over other forms of evidence? Do you attempt to disprove conflicting evidence? Do you just live with cognitive dissonance?

Also, I know this is a bit off topic, but how do you feel about evolution? I ask because I know you're a trad and I've seen a few websites/articles that insinuate or outright state that theistic evolution is incompatible with the Catholic faith. Almost as if it is heresy.

I know you're a cagey lad and will probably not directly answer this questions, but maybe you'll humor me eh?

@Credo in Deum I think your view of God is scary. This probably doesn't faze you. But I've heard various teachers of the faith explain that to actively will suffering is a key difference between Islamic and Christian theology. Allah in the Koran is shown as a deity who actively wills suffering, for the good of his followers or for punishment or whatever, whilst the Christian God passively wills it, meaning He tolerates it as an effect of freewill and uses it for the good of those who believe in Him.

 

Cagey? That is kind of rude.

[Nihil Obstat]

My thoughts on evolution are... I dunno, boring. What is true is true. I am no scientist, nor frankly am I a theologian, though I very much wish I could do that for a living. "It is not for me to know." I am a rational person, and some form of evolution seems reasonable to me, based on the evidence. I know that the Church has taught authoritatively on some specific points with regards to the creation of the world and the origins of humanity, and I accept these definitions to be true. Whether that makes me a theistic evolutionist or something different I do not know, nor do I care to make it a point of contention. There are other subjects that concern and interest me far more.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Nihil Obstat

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

Quote

So, just curious, how do you reconcile the archeological, historical evidence with Biblical text if you are to take the Exodus as a historical event? Do you just give faith precedence over other forms of evidence? Do you attempt to disprove conflicting evidence? Do you just live with cognitive dissonance?

No available evidence of the Exodus to date perhaps...........also, I don't think that lack of available evidence is therefore proof that it does not exist. 

Non existence of anything can only be proved by available evidence it does not exist..

 

 

Quote

.............I've heard various teachers of the faith explain that to actively will suffering is a key difference between Islamic and Christian theology. Allah in the Koran is shown as a deity who actively wills suffering, for the good of his followers or for punishment or whatever, whilst the Christian God passively wills it, meaning He tolerates it as an effect of freewill and uses it for the good of those who believe in Him.

Quote

#311 CCC"Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:

"For almighty God. . . , because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself "

St Augustine

(http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

Catholic Catechism (with concordance) no. 311 - and see to 314).

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Credo in Deum]

20 hours ago, Spem in alium said:

Natural disasters can also be termed "natural evil". Not evil in the sense we automatically think of, but still an evil in the world.

It is our sin which brought about death. It seems from reading Genesis, and other sources, that God never meant for humanity to die. Death came into the world as a direct consequence of free will -- of choosing to go against God -- and death is a suffering. But God uses this suffering for His own purpose entirely through the salvation brought by Jesus.

I can't see God directly causing, or enjoying, our suffering or our death. I don't believe He caused two of my mother's sisters to die from cancer on the same day four years apart, leaving behind husbands and young children. I don't believe He caused my friend to suffer a serious illness for many years, or another friend to have a miscarriage this year, or one of my sisters to currently be very sick in hospital. And I don't believe He caused my own suffering. I don't know how these things come about (coincidence? natural causes? genetics? a chain of events?) but I'm very hesitant to assign them to God. 

 

www.catholictradition.org/Classics/heliotropium1.htm

Book One: 

Chapter One: All Punishments Proceed from God 
  

1. Nothing whatever is done in the world [sin only excepted] without the Will of God. No power belongs to Fortune . . . these are but the dreams of heathen . . . Christian wisdom treats all idea of Fortune with contempt.

2. All evils, except sin, are from God. In all sin there are two things to be considered: guilt and punishment. Now God is the Author of the punishment which attaches to sin, but in no way of the guilt. So that, if we take away the guilt, there is no evil belonging to the punishment which is not caused by God, or is not pleasing to Him. The evils then of punishment, like the evils of nature, originate in the Divine Will. We mean by evils of nature, hunger, thirst, disease, grief, and the like, things which very often have no connection with sin. And so God truly [and,  effectively and positively] wills all the evils of punishment and nature for reasons of perfect justice, but only permits sin or guilt.

So that the latter is called His Permitting Will, the former His Ordaining Will. All, therefore, that we call evil proceeds from the Will of God. Thus Theologians teach; and this foundation must be laid as deeply as possible in the soul, for it is of the utmost importance humbly to receive, and ever to hold, as an infallible truth, that the first cause of all punishments and evils is the Divine Will, always excepting guilt, as I have said already.

Having carefully laid this foundation, we arrive at the following conclusion: Since whatever is done in the world happens through the Permission or Command of God, it is our duty to receive everything as from the Hand of God, so conforming our will to His most holy Will, through all things, and in all things, as to ascribe nothing to accident, chance, or fortune. These are but monstrous conceptions of the ancients, and are not for an instant to be endured among Christians. And it is not only to fortune or chance that nothing is to be ascribed, but neither to the negligence or persevering care of man, as prime causes. Vain and idle are such complaints as, ''This or that happened to me because this or that man hated me, or managed my affairs badly, or did my business carelessly. Things would certainly have turned out differently if he had only been well disposed towards me, and had entered into the business with all his heart, and had not spared his pains." This kind of philosophy is vain and foolish. But true, wise, and holy is this, "The Lord has done it all." For, as I have already said, good and evil things are from God.

3. And here very many persons deceive themselves through miserable ignorance, for they persuade themselves that only those evils which arise from natural causes-----such as floods, earthquakes, landslips, barrenness, scarcity of corn, damage caused by the weather, troubles arising from disease, death, and the like-----are inflicted by God, since in this case there very often is no sin which can be connected with the punishment; but that those evils which derive their origin from vice and human wickedness [as, for example, calumny, deceit, theft, treachery, wrong, rapine, oppression, war, murder] are not from God, and do not proceed from His Providence, but from the wickedness and perverse will of those who devise such things as these against others. And hence those complaints so frequently in people's mouths of late year: "This scarcity of corn is not God's doing. It is caused by men immoderately greedy of gain, and not by God." Such ways of speaking are mad and impious; they are utterly unworthy of a Christian man, and should be banished to the shades below the earth.

But in order to make my meaning as clear as possible, I will illustrate it by an example. Take the case of a man who wishes his neighbor to be stripped of all his goods, and who, in order to put this abominable design into execution, creeps secretly into the house of the man he hates, sets fire to it, and immediately hurries away. Presently, when the house is in flames, he runs to the spot with others, as if with the intention of helping to put out the fire, when all the while it is quite different: for, if occasion serves, he does not try to keep the flames under, but collects spoils for himself, and secretly removes from the fire plunder to increase his own property. All such designs as these, regarded by themselves, without perversity of will, and all such actions as these, considered "in genere entis" have God as their Author. God brings these things about, just as He brings about other things in creatures void of reason. For as these last can neither move, nor do anything without God, so cannot the incendiary either enter a house, or leave it again, or scatter fire in it, without God. But it does not follow that these several acts are evil in themselves, for they may also be compatible with virtue, but the will of the incendiary is evil; it is a most wicked design which that abandoned man has followed, and of this God is not the Author and Cause, although He haspermitted this design to be carried into execution. He might indeed have hindered it, if it had so pleased Him. Since, however, God by His Own just Judgment did not hinder that wicked design, He permitted it. The causes of His Permission I shall give further on.

4. The same line of reasoning holds good also in reference to other sins; and this may, perhaps, appear the clearer from the following example. Take the case of a man who is lame in consequence of a wound which he has received; he attempts to walk, it is true, but he moves over the ground with greater pain, and with a more awkward gait than a sound man. Now the cause of motion in the foot is the natural impelling force, but the cause of lameness is the wound, not the moving power of the soul. And just in like manner God is the Cause of that act which anyone performs when sinning, but the cause of error and sin in this act is man's free will. God supplies help to the act, but not to that wandering and departure from law and rectitude. Although, therefore, God is not, and cannot be, the Author of sin-----yet it is, nevertheless, most certain that all the evil of punishment arising from second causes, whether rational or irrational [in whatever way, or for whatever reason it may happen], proceeds entirely from the Hand of God, and from His most benign Disposal and Providence. It is God, my good friend, it is God, I say, Who guided the hand of him who struck you. It is God Who moved the tongue of him who slandered you. It is God Who supplied strength to him who wickedly trampled you under foot. God Himself, speaking of Himself by the mouth of Isaias, declares [chap. XLV. 7]: "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord that do all these things." And how completely does the Prophet Amos confirm this, when he says [chap III. 6]: "Shall there be evil in a city, which the Lord hath not done?" Just as if he had said, there is no evil which God does not do, by permitting the evil of guilt, and by ordaining and working out the evil of punishment.

Thus God, intending to punish the adultery and murder of king David by the sin of his incestuous son Absalom, says [2 Kings XII. II, 12]: "Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thy own house, and I will take thy wives before thy eyes, and give them to thy neighbor, and he shall lie with thy wives . . . I will do this thing in the sight of all Israel, and in the sight of the sun." St. Augustine said: "In this way God instructs good men by means of evil ones." Thus it is that the Divine Justice makes wicked kings and princes its instruments, as well for exercising the patience of good men, as for chastising the forwardness of bad.

5. But it may be objected-----if this is the case, if the Will of God is the origin of all evils [as defined above-----CT], why do we strive against it? Why do we attack disease with medicines? Why do we oppose armed battalions to the enemy?

It is good, my friend, not to be wiser than we ought, but "to think soberly." [Rom. XII. 3.] That war and deaths of all kinds are from God, it is clear enough. But the conclusion drawn from this, viz., that therefore we must not resist an enemy, and must not grapple with disease, is bad. For the will of sign is one thing and the will of good-pleasure is another. Let us take disease as an example. From whatever cause it arises, without the smallest doubt it proceeds from the Divine Will. Since, however, the sick man does not know ho long God wills that he should be afflicted, he may very properly strive against it, and use any lawful means to recover his health. But when he has tried all remedies, and has made no progress . . . let him feel fully persuaded that it is the Divine Will that he should be afflicted with a protracted illness. This is the right way, then, to reason: God wills that you, my sick friend, should be ill; but because you do not know whether He also wills that you should never be cured, you may, for that reason, use lawful remedies. If, however, He wills that the disease should continue, He will withdraw all efficacy from the medicines, so that you may not be cured. And the same is to be said about enemies. God often willed that the children of Israel should be attacked, lest they fall into sluggish ways; but as long as it did not appear that He willed that they should also be overcome, so long might they resist the enemy. It would have been otherwise if God had warned them, as He did by the Prophet Jeremias, that they should surrender themselves to King Nebuchodonosor. In the same way, too, if a fire which has broken out cannot be extinguished by any amount of labor, it is a plain proof that God willed not merely that the house should catch fire, but that it should be burnt down, either to try His friends, or punish His enemies . . .

6.  . . . why should it be thought strange  that Divine Providence and Justice should use wicked men as its instruments, when even devils themselves fulfill this office? "It happens," says S. Gregory [Mor. II. 14], "by a wonderful dispensation of piety, that, through the very means by which the malignant enemy tempts the heart in order to destroy it, the merciful Creator disciplines it that it may live." It is said of Saul: "the day after the evil spirit from God came upon Saul." But how could that spirit be evil, if it was from God? How could it be of God, if it was evil? And this the same history explains, when it says: "An evil spirit from the Lord troubled him." It was an evil spirit in consequence of the desire of his own perverse will, but it was a spirit of the Lord, because sent from the Lord to torment him. S. Augustine, Bishop of Hippo [in Ps. XXXI. Exp. ii. 25], throws much light on this; nor will it be amiss to quote his words at length:

"What is right in heart?" he inquires. "Not resisting God. Attend, my beloved, and understand the right heart. I speak briefly, but yet a thing of all the most to be commended. Between a heart right, and a heart not right, there is this difference: Whatever man, let him suffer what he may against his will, afflictions, sorrows, labors, humiliations, attributeth them not but to the just will of God [let this be well observed], not charging him with foolishness, as though He knoweth not what he doth, because he scourgeth such an one, and spareth another; he indeed is right in heart. But perverse in heart, and forward, and distorted are they, who, whatever evils they suffer, say that they suffer them unjustly, charging Him with injustice through Whose Will they suffer; or, because they dare not charge Him with injustice, take from Him His government. Because God, saith one, cannot do injustice, but it is unjust that I suffer, and such an one suffer not; for I grant that I am a sinner, yet surely there are some worse, who rejoice, while I suffer tribulation; because, then, this is unjust, that even some worse than I should rejoice, while I suffer tribulation who am either just, or less a sinner than they, and it is certain unto me that this is unjust, and it is certain unto me that God doth not injustice; therefore God governeth not the things of men, nor is there any care for us with Him. They then who are not right in heart [that is, who are distorted in heart] have three conclusions. Either there is no God; for, 'the fool hath said in his heart there is no God.' [Ps. XIII. I.] Or, God is unjust, Who is pleased at these things, and Who doeth these things. Or, God governeth not human things, and there is no care for all men with Him. In these three conclusions there is great impiety." And then a little further on the same Father continues: "So that is the right heart, brethren. Let every man to whomsoever anything happens say, 'The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away.' [Job I. 21.] Lo, this is a right heart, 'As it hath pleased the Lord, so is it done. Blessed be the name of the Lord.' He said not, 'The Lord gave, and the Devil hath taken away.' Attend, therefore, beloved, lest haply you should say, the Devil did this for me. Unto thy God alone refer thy scourge, for not even the Devil doth anything against thee, unless He permit Who hath power above, either for punishment, or for discipline: for the punishment of the ungodly, for the discipline of His sons. For 'He scourgeth every son whom He receiveth.' [Heb. XII. 6.] Neither must thou hope to be without a scourge, unless haply thou wish to be disinherited; for 'He scourgeth every son whom He receiveth.' What, every son? Where then wouldst thou hide thyself? Every one; and none will be excepted; none without a scourge. What? even to all? Would you hear how truly: He saith all? Even the Only-Begotten, without sin, was yet not without a scourge." This is, indeed, a noble piece of instruction, and thoroughly worthy of Augustine. But since, according to that Father's meaning, neither devil nor man has power against any one, except by the Permission of God, I must briefly mention what sort of things God permits; for that reason, and on what grounds He permits them.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Credo in Deum

[Credo in Deum]

Before I read this book I used to think much of the same way as the above posts. I used to say "I can't believe God would this or that", but then I realized I was attached to a God of my own understanding. 

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.  For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts."--Isaiah 55:8-9

 

[Nihil Obstat]

Thanks for posting that, Credo. Food for thought.

[Credo in Deum]

5 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Thanks for posting that, Credo. Food for thought.

You're welcome, Nihil.

[veritasluxmea]

Credo, I have skimmed through the book and the chapters you've posted. I am not drawing the same conclusions you seem to. He seems to discuss more the senseless sufferings that God is permitting, not puppet-tering, which is kind of what you've seemed to imply at times. My point is more that God doesn't desire this kind of suffering, but suffering is the natural fallout of free will making bad choices and so permitted by Him to play out, and most of it could have been avoided in the absence of sin, as with the plagues in Exodus. When the oral traditions in Genesis were told and written down, the Jews didn't have a concept of satan, so anything supernatural would be directly attributed to God's direct will, instead of being from a natural or supernatural evil permitted by Him. Icenine raises a good point in her comparison of the two theologies. 

I respect that the book helped you understand the mystery of suffering and trusting in God's ultimate plan, which is the conclusion I've come to as well, but for the record I tend to take French devotional books written from the 1700's the 1800's with a grain of salt. They're not infallible are written in the style of the times- greatly exaggerated and rather influenced by a Jansenistic idea of God. (I don't think the other idea of "Barney the dinosaur" God is perfect either, neither extremes are correct.) 

[Spem in alium]

Thank you for sharing that, Credo. It's good to understand this viewpoint, which I do believe many people hold (myself included, more or less, at one time), and I respect the importance this book has had for you personally.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Spem in alium

[Credo in Deum]

28 minutes ago, veritasluxmea said:

Credo, I have skimmed through the book and the chapters you've posted. I am not drawing the same conclusions you seem to. He seems to discuss more the senseless sufferings that God is permitting, not puppet-tering, which is kind of what you've seemed to imply at times. My point is more that God doesn't desire this kind of suffering, but suffering is the natural fallout of free will making bad choices and so permitted by Him to play out, and most of it could have been avoided in the absence of sin, as with the plagues in Exodus. When the oral traditions in Genesis were told and written down, the Jews didn't have a concept of satan, so anything supernatural would be directly attributed to God's direct will, instead of being from a natural or supernatural evil permitted by Him. Icenine raises a good point in her comparison of the two theologies. 

I respect that the book helped you understand the mystery of suffering and trusting in God's ultimate plan, which is the conclusion I've come to as well, but for the record I tend to take French devotional books written from the 1700's the 1800's with a grain of salt. They're not infallible are written in the style of the times- greatly exaggerated and rather influenced by a Jansenistic idea of God. (I don't think the other idea of "Barney the dinosaur" God is perfect either, neither extremes are correct.) 

Having read the book, and not skimmed, I disagree with you.  I take books with a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur since it is the Church's stamp of approval and orthodoxy which this book has both.  There is no Jansenistic idea of God in this book.  

Edited June 26, 2016 by Credo in Deum

[Credo in Deum]

14 minutes ago, Spem in alium said:

Thank you for sharing that, Credo. It's good to understand this viewpoint, which I do believe many people hold (myself included, more or less, at one time), and I respect the importance this book has had for you personally.

You're welcome, Spem.  I disagree that this is a view many people believe. Many Christians are caught in the error of thinking God has no active part in things which happen to them or that He controls somethings but not others. Most think He just created us, the world, and the universe, and just sits back like He's watching an ant farm.  I've found that most of the time we hold these errors because we don't want to accept a God we cannot understand/comprehend. A God who willed my father to die of cancer but my mother to go into remission. A God who wills for one child to grow up in riches, and another to be taken by an alligator. We don't like seeing things like this in the world and not being able to ask "why" or "how come?"of God.  We have a hard time accepting that when it comes to the Judgments of God we are not owed an explanation from Him.

 

[Spem in alium]

11 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

You're welcome, Spem.  I disagree that this is a view many people believe. Many Christians are caught in the error of thinking God has no active part in things which happen to them or that He controls somethings but not others. Most think He just created us, the world, and the universe, and just sits back like He's watching an ant farm.  I've found that most of the time we hold these errors because we don't want to accept a God we cannot understand/comprehend. A God who willed my father to die of cancer but my mother to go into remission. A God who wills for one child to grow up in riches, and another to be taken by an alligator. We don't like seeing things like this in the world and not being able to ask "why" or "how come?"of God.  We have a hard time accepting that when it comes to the Judgments of God we are not owed an explanation from Him.

 

I've actually come across many people who see God as directly responsible for everything in their lives, especially bad things. When something goes wrong, they tend to say "Why did God do this to me? Why does God hate me? etc." My closest friend, who's had really difficult health problems these last six years, actually walked away from God because of her belief that He wants her to be sick. Some people view God as a puppeteer who controls us completely, some view God as a sort of weatherman (and in my drought-stricken country, I see this often), and yes, as you say, some people view God as just sitting back and watching things unfold. My belief is that God has a direct involvement in our lives because we are His creation, but He does not actively cause us to suffer. This is a belief which has come through years of people (good-intentioned people, though) telling me that God caused my difficulties and that He wants me to suffer. Maybe my belief is not accurate, and God really does play an active role in my suffering. But from my understanding and experience of God's presence in my life, this is not the case.

And you are right. We tend to ask "Why?" of God - myself included. There are many things we will never know about God, and we have to be content with that - as much as we can be, anyway!

[Maggyie]

26 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

You're welcome, Spem.  I disagree that this is a view many people believe. Many Christians are caught in the error of thinking God has no active part in things which happen to them or that He controls somethings but not others. Most think He just created us, the world, and the universe, and just sits back like He's watching an ant farm.  I've found that most of the time we hold these errors because we don't want to accept a God we cannot understand/comprehend. A God who willed my father to die of cancer but my mother to go into remission. A God who wills for one child to grow up in riches, and another to be taken by an alligator. We don't like seeing things like this in the world and not being able to ask "why" or "how come?"of God.  We have a hard time accepting that when it comes to the Judgments of God we are not owed an explanation from Him.

 

Just a very very nasty view of God who kills children and so forth. The same out of date books would also say that the babies God murders in the womb are deprived of Heaven since they are unbaptized. So you have a bloodthirsty God who creates babies and then kills them, purposefully damning them (limbo is explained as a part of Hell, not Heaven). I would not worship such a god, indeed, the only thing to be accomplished by worshipping him would be to hope to avoid his capricious violence. 

Edited June 26, 2016 by Maggyie

[Credo in Deum]

31 minutes ago, Spem in alium said:

I've actually come across many people who see God as directly responsible for everything in their lives, especially bad things. When something goes wrong, they tend to say "Why did God do this to me? Why does God hate me? etc." My closest friend, who's had really difficult health problems these last six years, actually walked away from God because of her belief that He wants her to be sick. Some people view God as a puppeteer who controls us completely, some view God as a sort of weatherman (and in my drought-stricken country, I see this often), and yes, as you say, some people view God as just sitting back and watching things unfold. My belief is that God has a direct involvement in our lives because we are His creation, but He does not actively cause us to suffer. This is a belief which has come through years of people (good-intentioned people, though) telling me that God caused my difficulties and that He wants me to suffer. Maybe my belief is not accurate, and God really does play an active role in my suffering. But from my understanding and experience of God's presence in my life, this is not the case.

And you are right. We tend to ask "Why?" of God - myself included. There are many things we will never know about God, and we have to be content with that - as much as we can be, anyway!

There is an expression used often and it is "the truth hurts". Should we leave truth because it hurts? I believe God is responsible for everything and so when something happens I don't ask "Why did God do this to me?!" or "Why does God hate me?", since we know God does all things for our sanctification.  God has caused you difficulties and he has done this not because he enjoys seeing you suffer but because He wants you to be a saint! There isn't a malicious intent behind His reasons, but this does not mean there will not be suffering! My Personal trainer causes me suffering, but I don't call him mean or view him has hating me because of it. He causes me suffering because he knows what the end result will be for me if I take his instruction correctly and work through the pain.

 

29 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

Just a very very nasty view of God who kills children and so forth. The same out of date books would also say that the babies God murders in the womb are deprived of Heaven since they are unbaptized. So you have a bloodthirsty God who creates babies and then kills them, purposefully damning them (limbo is explained as a part of Heaven, not Hell). I would not worship such a god, indeed, the only thing to be accomplished by worshipping him would be to hope to avoid his capricious violence. 

LoL, your response is beyond ridiculous Maggyie. I'm kind of interested how you reconcile a God who does not will babies to be eaten by alligators, with a God who does at the same time will that His only Begotten son be beaten, scourged, mocked, and crucified for our sins.  Very interesting indeed.  

HELIOTROPIUM 
Conformity of the Human Will to the Divine 
By  FATHER JEREMIAS DREXELIUS

"The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away . . . blessed be the name of the Lord." 
Job 1: 21

TAN BOOKS AND PUBLISHERS, INC. 

Book One: 

Chapter Three: 
How The Divine Will Is To be Recognized By Means 
Of The Most Secret Judgments Of God

AND here that saying of the Prophet must constantly be repeated,-----"O Lord, Thy Judgments are a great deep." [Ps. XXXV. 6] Great, great beyond all measure! From ancient times the two servants of the king of Egypt, the butler and the baker, pointed out this "deep," as it were with a finger. Both served the same king, both fell into disgrace, both were thrown into prison and bonds, and for no light reason, for with both was king Pharao angry; both of them also he remembered during his feast; to both he might have granted the favor of life, without prejudice to his justice; or both he might have condemned to death. And yet he sentenced the one to a punishment of shame, while he restored the other to his former office. The baker he hanged, and exposed him as food for the birds; the butler he restored to favor, and at last admitted him again to serve at the royal table. And such are the Judgments of God, Who banishes some from His Presence through Justice, but admits others to it through Grace. His Judgments are a great deep! "Who is able to declare His works?

For who shall search out His glorious acts?" [Ecclus. XVIII. 4]

    1. How secret were the Judgments of God about Nabuchodonosor, and that Pharao which knew not Joseph! [Exod. I. 8] S. Augustine well says concerning them:-----"Nabuchodonosor, having been scourged after his numberless iniquities, merited repentance which brought forth good fruit; while on the other hand Pharao was made more obdurate by the very scourges and perished. Both were kings and wicked ones; both were admonished by scourges; and what, I pray, made their ends so different? One of them, when he felt the hand of God, bewailed his sin, and came to his senses; the other, refusing to acknowledge the Will of God, continued in his sins and perished." And so it is that the same medicine, compounded by the same hand, affects two persons, who are laboring under the very same disease, in an entirely different way, and leads one to health, the other to the grave. Thus the two thieves who were crucified with Christ were equally guilty, and were punished in the same way by the self-same death, and yet after death they shared habitations as different as it was possible to be! The Judgments of God are a great deep!

   That excellent king Asa, who "did that which was good and pleasing in the sight of his God, and destroyed the altars of foreign worship, and the high places, and broke the statues, and cut down the groves" [2 Par. XIV. 2, 3], he, I say, who was the best of kings, yet at the end of his reign corrupted his earlier praise. For a long time he bore himself illustriously, for thirty years he might have been considered a pattern for the most excellent princes; but at length, trusting in the king of Syria more than in God, he threw into prison the prophet Hanani who rebuked him for what he had done, slew many of the people, and, being afflicted with a painful disease in his feet, trusted more to the skill of physicians than to the Divine aid. Alas! how little did his end answer to his beginning! How was that holy king changed from himself! And, on the other hand, Manasses, a most wicked king, who disfigured the whole of his life with infamy through his evil deeds, at length came to himself, and crowned his bad beginning with a noble end. Thy Judgments, O my God, are a great deep,-----too deep to fathom!

    2. What objects of wonder are Saul and David! Both of them at the beginning were deserving of praise; both fell into grievous sins, to the scandal of the whole kingdom; for this both were punished, but with what a different effect! Saul, a man of obstinate impiety, perished most miserably; David turned his punishment into healing discipline, and thereby became a man after God's Own Heart. And here it is impiety to ask "why is this?" That "why" came from the school of the devil. Many have been ruined by that querulous "why" and "wherefore." "Why hath God commanded you?" [Gen. III. I] asked at the beginning the subtlest of serpents. To whom they oughtto have replied, "We know that God has commanded, but why He has commanded is not for us to inquire. It is the Will of the Lord, and the grounds of this Will are not to be investigated by us." "For who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been His counselor? Or who hath first given to Him, and recompense shall be made him? For of Him, and by Him, and in Him are all things." [Rom. XI. 34-36] But perhaps some one will say, "Yet it may be lawful to require some reason for this or that command." From whom? from God-----to Whom alone that which He pleases is lawful, and Whom nothing pleases but that which is lawful?

   How wonderful also is it that the Samaritans with the utmost readiness believe our Lord's words, and pray Him to remain with them, while the Gerasens are unbelieving, and pray Him to depart from them! The faithless Jews cannot be induced by words, or deeds, or by any wonders and miracles to believe in the Truth. Thy Judgments, O Lord, are a great deep!

   Julian of Alexandria, a holy Martyr, being deprived of the use of his feet, was carried in a chair to the judgment-seat by two servants. One of them, renouncing his faith and his master, apostatized most disgracefully; the other, Eunus by name, remained faithful to God and his master; and so both of them, having been placed on camels, and scourged through the whole city of Alexandria, were at length thrown together into a fire, and ended their life most holily. When Besa, a soldier, saw them, and, through pity for the innocent, tried to restrain the violence ot the wonted crowd, he was accused before the judge and beheaded. In truth he received the reward intended for that traitor. Thy Judgments, O Lord, are a great deep!

     "O Lord, how great are Thy works; Thy thoughts are exceeding deep. The senseless man shall not know; nor will the fool understand these things." [Ps. XCI. 6, 7] Truly Thou art a God that hideth Thyself! In the year 1117, when the whole of Italy was disturbed by earthquakes, it is related that some of the nobles of Milan were sitting in a tower, engaged in business of the state, when a voice was heard outside, which called one of them by name to come out. At first he hesitated, and doubted who called, and who it was that was called and so he sat still, and waited for a repetition of the summons, when behold! a stranger presented himself at the door, and begged him to come out. He had scarcely gone a few steps from the place when the tower fell, and buried them all! Now why should this man alone, and none of the rest, have been preserved from death? The Judgments of God are a great deep! Who can fail to see that in this case the miracles of old time were repeated? Thus it was that an Angel led out Lot and his family from the destruction of Sodom. Thus likewise a thousand others, amid the multitude of those who perished, have been saved from destruction.

      In the year 1597, there lived at Monreale, in Sicily, a man abandoned to an evil life, who had been often admonished that he should give up his impure life. Still the wretched man persisted in his wickedness, and after the last warning was stabbed in the lap of the wretched companion of his sin. Another man, of similar habits, who for many years had lived in impurity, when he heard of this sad death, determined to grow wise through another man's sin, and reconciled himself to God. And what can I here exclaim again, but this same, Thy Judgments, O Lord, are past finding out!

3. And it was this which hurried away S. Paul into such great wonder. To those twins, Esau and Jacob, when they were not as yet born, and had done no good or evil, it was said,-----"Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated. What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? God forbid. O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, why hast Thou made me thus? Or hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?" [Rom. IX. 13, 14, 20, 21] The goldsmith fashions his silver and gold, the potter the clay, according to his will, although between the potter and the clay there is not even the shadow of such a relationship as exists between God and man, the vilest worm of earth. Who therefore will say to God, "Why dost Thou so?" [Job IX. 12] 

   Dorotheus relates that a ship full of slaves for sale once upon a time arrived at a certain city. Now there was in that place a virgin of most saintly life, and who was entirely devoted to the care of her soul. She was exceedingly pleased that an opportunity was afforded her of purchasing from the ship a little maid whom she might train, under her own immediate guidance, while she was still of a teachable age, to sanctity of life. And, fortunately, the captain had two little damsels, one of whom the lady bought at a high price. She had hardly left the ship when there arrived a woman of profligate manners, who acted plays with a dancing-girl; and she having bid for the other little maid, when she heard that she might be obtained for a trifling sum, bought her and carried her away. Alas! wretched little one, who hast fallen to a mistress as wicked as the other has to a good one! And who can here search out the depth of the Divine Judgment? Both of these little maids were of an innocent age, both were offered for sale, both were ignorant of the lot which awaited them, both, like a new vase, would preserve the odor of that which they earliest imbibed; and yet the one, from being trained in manners becoming a maiden, without difficulty became accustomed to the practice of virtue from her tenderest years, and in this way worthy of the companionship of Angels; while the other, being instructed by that Fury in every kind of wantonness and profligacy, and imitating too successfully the abandoned manners of her mistress, became a veritable prey for the Devil. And yet she would have been different, if she had had a different mistress. But, "Thy Judgments, O Lord, are a great deep!"

The experience also of S. Gregory the Great, in his own family, is much the same. This most holy man had three aunts on his father's side, all of whom devoted themselves to Christ, and the Society of Holy Virgins. The first two preserved the vow of virginity with the utmost fidelity, and finished their life by a most blessed end. But the third, Gordiana, would listen to no admonitions, and so, greedily devouring the baits of sin, burst at length from all restraint, left the Society, and married a farm-bailiff. "O Lord, Thy Judgments are a great deep!" Let no one try to fathom them! "Behold, God is great, exceeding our knowledge. Who can search out His ways?" 

[Job XXXVI. 23, 26] King David is very cautious here,-----"I am become," he says, ''as a beast before Thee." [Ps. LXXII. 21] Into Thy Judgments, O my God, I do not pry; I behave as Thy beast. It is the part of a beast to obey the command of his master, not to discuss his orders. And what wonder is it that a man who had not been educated in the Schools, but who had passed the earliest days of his youth in tending a flock, should think thus of himself, when the very Seraphim, those most glorious spirits, do the same? For, when question was in Heaven concerning the rejection of the Jews, the Seraphim covered their face and feet with two wings each [Isai. VI. 2], confessing that they could not by their knowledge attain to such a height, as worthily to extol the wonderful works of God; that the Divine Judgments surpass all power of understanding; and that they are therefore content to know that the Deity is thrice holy,-----holy in Itself, holy in Its Judgments, holy in Its Works. If, then, the most glorious Angels thus adore the secret Judgments of God, how much more ought we, who are utterly insignificant men of earth, to exclaim, "The Lord is faithful in all His words, and holy in all His works?" [Ps. CXLIV. 17] And here let that most admirable saying of S. Augustine be a comfort to everyone: "God is able to save some without any good deserts, because He is Good. He cannot condemn any without evil deserts, because He is Just."

4. We behold wonderful revolutions in the world, continual changes, events altogether unexpected, and sometimes we say, "Pray let us see how the thing will end." After a time we do see, and are astonished, muttering to ourselves some such freezing exclamation as "I could not have thought it!" But we know not, miserable creatures that we are, what will follow; and however things may turn out, the reason of them is not to be asked,-----"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are My ways exalted above your ways, and My thoughts above your thoughts." [Isai. LV. 8, 9] To inquire the reason of the secret Counsel of God is nothing else, according to S. Gregory, than to wax wanton against His Ordinance. It becomes us to say at all times with Blessed Paul, "O the depth of the riches of the Wisdom and of the Knowledge of God! How incomprehensible are His Judgments, and how unsearchable His ways!" [Rom. XI. 33] In this life there are many things which we shall never rightly search out. Let it suffice us to know that God is not unjust, and that at the last day there will not be one who will not be constrained to say, "Righteous art Thou, O Lord, and true is Thy Judgment." King David, indeed, tried his utmost to search out the secret Judgments of God. "I studied," he says, "that I might know this thing." [Ps. LXXII. 16] But at length, not finding any end to his search,-----"It is a labor in my sight," he confesses, "until I go into the sanctuary of God." This knowledge of secret things must be postponed for a better world.
 

   Let us, therefore, also fold the wings of a curious mind. The regular flow and ebb of the sea has exercised all the learning of philosophers, and how can we fathom the most profound recesses of the Divine Judgments? Who can find out why one was born in Turkey, and another among Christians? Why the Gospel of Christ has come so late into many countries, and meanwhile so many thousands of men have perished while the same Gospel has early been spread in other provinces? What is the reason why one country is throughout its entire length infected with heresy, while another flourishes in entire freedom from all contamination of it? Why does the Divine Vengeance pass by some, while it falls upon others? Why are some innocent people overthrown, and why do the sins of ancestors descend to their posterity? Why were so many expeditions of kings and emperors undertaken in vain for the recovery of the Holy Land? Let us shrink from asking why God gave to Adam place for repentance, but not to Lucifer. Why Christ showed mercy on Peter, but not on Iscariot. Why one person dies in the cradle, another in old age. Why one perishes in depravity, though he has not been depraved for long, while another recovers himself from depravity, though he has for a long time wallowed in vice. Why one is rolling in riches, while another has neither bread nor money. What meanest thou, O wandering mind, by this curious inquiry? Do you desire to touch that heavenly fire of the Divine Judgment? You will be melted with the heat. Do you wish to scale the citadel of Providence? You will fall. Just as moths and other tiny insects ever and anon in the evening fly round the light of a candle till they are burnt, so the human mind disports itself around that hidden flame We have the eyes of bats for this sun. We are only human; we understand not the secret Counsels of God "The works of the Highest only are wonderful, and His works are hidden." [Ecclus. XI. 4] There never was a man who could at the same time read a book written within and without. That book of the Divine Judgments is written within full of Predestination, without of Providence. The Eternal, all-wise God has "ordered all things in measure, and number, and weight; and who shall resist the strength of His Arm?" [Wisdom XI. 2 I, 22] Let us rest assured of this, that the Cause before all causes is THE WILL OF GOD, and he who seeks a different cause than this is ignorant of the strength and power of the Divine Nature; for it is necessary that every cause should in a certain way be prior to, and greater than, its own effect; but nothing is prior to, nothing is greater than, God and His Will. Of this, therefore, there is no cause. And what more do you now desire? God has permitted, God has willed, God has done! The Will of God is, as Salvian rightly and piously says, Supreme Justice. It is the most consummate wisdom quietly to acquiesce in the Decrees of the Divine Will and Providence.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Credo in Deum

[Maggyie]

Tldr. Again you believe that God creates souls just to beaver dam them. 

[Credo in Deum]

7 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

Tldr. Again you believe that God creates souls just to beaver dam them. 

You should try reading. It might help.