Thoughts On Suffering

[Spem in alium]

11 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

You're welcome, Spem.  I disagree that this is a view many people believe. Many Christians are caught in the error of thinking God has no active part in things which happen to them or that He controls somethings but not others. Most think He just created us, the world, and the universe, and just sits back like He's watching an ant farm.  I've found that most of the time we hold these errors because we don't want to accept a God we cannot understand/comprehend. A God who willed my father to die of cancer but my mother to go into remission. A God who wills for one child to grow up in riches, and another to be taken by an alligator. We don't like seeing things like this in the world and not being able to ask "why" or "how come?"of God.  We have a hard time accepting that when it comes to the Judgments of God we are not owed an explanation from Him.

 

I've actually come across many people who see God as directly responsible for everything in their lives, especially bad things. When something goes wrong, they tend to say "Why did God do this to me? Why does God hate me? etc." My closest friend, who's had really difficult health problems these last six years, actually walked away from God because of her belief that He wants her to be sick. Some people view God as a puppeteer who controls us completely, some view God as a sort of weatherman (and in my drought-stricken country, I see this often), and yes, as you say, some people view God as just sitting back and watching things unfold. My belief is that God has a direct involvement in our lives because we are His creation, but He does not actively cause us to suffer. This is a belief which has come through years of people (good-intentioned people, though) telling me that God caused my difficulties and that He wants me to suffer. Maybe my belief is not accurate, and God really does play an active role in my suffering. But from my understanding and experience of God's presence in my life, this is not the case.

And you are right. We tend to ask "Why?" of God - myself included. There are many things we will never know about God, and we have to be content with that - as much as we can be, anyway!

[Maggyie]

26 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

You're welcome, Spem.  I disagree that this is a view many people believe. Many Christians are caught in the error of thinking God has no active part in things which happen to them or that He controls somethings but not others. Most think He just created us, the world, and the universe, and just sits back like He's watching an ant farm.  I've found that most of the time we hold these errors because we don't want to accept a God we cannot understand/comprehend. A God who willed my father to die of cancer but my mother to go into remission. A God who wills for one child to grow up in riches, and another to be taken by an alligator. We don't like seeing things like this in the world and not being able to ask "why" or "how come?"of God.  We have a hard time accepting that when it comes to the Judgments of God we are not owed an explanation from Him.

 

Just a very very nasty view of God who kills children and so forth. The same out of date books would also say that the babies God murders in the womb are deprived of Heaven since they are unbaptized. So you have a bloodthirsty God who creates babies and then kills them, purposefully damning them (limbo is explained as a part of Hell, not Heaven). I would not worship such a god, indeed, the only thing to be accomplished by worshipping him would be to hope to avoid his capricious violence. 

Edited June 26, 2016 by Maggyie

[Credo in Deum]

31 minutes ago, Spem in alium said:

I've actually come across many people who see God as directly responsible for everything in their lives, especially bad things. When something goes wrong, they tend to say "Why did God do this to me? Why does God hate me? etc." My closest friend, who's had really difficult health problems these last six years, actually walked away from God because of her belief that He wants her to be sick. Some people view God as a puppeteer who controls us completely, some view God as a sort of weatherman (and in my drought-stricken country, I see this often), and yes, as you say, some people view God as just sitting back and watching things unfold. My belief is that God has a direct involvement in our lives because we are His creation, but He does not actively cause us to suffer. This is a belief which has come through years of people (good-intentioned people, though) telling me that God caused my difficulties and that He wants me to suffer. Maybe my belief is not accurate, and God really does play an active role in my suffering. But from my understanding and experience of God's presence in my life, this is not the case.

And you are right. We tend to ask "Why?" of God - myself included. There are many things we will never know about God, and we have to be content with that - as much as we can be, anyway!

There is an expression used often and it is "the truth hurts". Should we leave truth because it hurts? I believe God is responsible for everything and so when something happens I don't ask "Why did God do this to me?!" or "Why does God hate me?", since we know God does all things for our sanctification.  God has caused you difficulties and he has done this not because he enjoys seeing you suffer but because He wants you to be a saint! There isn't a malicious intent behind His reasons, but this does not mean there will not be suffering! My Personal trainer causes me suffering, but I don't call him mean or view him has hating me because of it. He causes me suffering because he knows what the end result will be for me if I take his instruction correctly and work through the pain.

 

29 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

Just a very very nasty view of God who kills children and so forth. The same out of date books would also say that the babies God murders in the womb are deprived of Heaven since they are unbaptized. So you have a bloodthirsty God who creates babies and then kills them, purposefully damning them (limbo is explained as a part of Heaven, not Hell). I would not worship such a god, indeed, the only thing to be accomplished by worshipping him would be to hope to avoid his capricious violence. 

LoL, your response is beyond ridiculous Maggyie. I'm kind of interested how you reconcile a God who does not will babies to be eaten by alligators, with a God who does at the same time will that His only Begotten son be beaten, scourged, mocked, and crucified for our sins.  Very interesting indeed.  

HELIOTROPIUM 
Conformity of the Human Will to the Divine 
By  FATHER JEREMIAS DREXELIUS

"The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away . . . blessed be the name of the Lord." 
Job 1: 21

TAN BOOKS AND PUBLISHERS, INC. 

Book One: 

Chapter Three: 
How The Divine Will Is To be Recognized By Means 
Of The Most Secret Judgments Of God

AND here that saying of the Prophet must constantly be repeated,-----"O Lord, Thy Judgments are a great deep." [Ps. XXXV. 6] Great, great beyond all measure! From ancient times the two servants of the king of Egypt, the butler and the baker, pointed out this "deep," as it were with a finger. Both served the same king, both fell into disgrace, both were thrown into prison and bonds, and for no light reason, for with both was king Pharao angry; both of them also he remembered during his feast; to both he might have granted the favor of life, without prejudice to his justice; or both he might have condemned to death. And yet he sentenced the one to a punishment of shame, while he restored the other to his former office. The baker he hanged, and exposed him as food for the birds; the butler he restored to favor, and at last admitted him again to serve at the royal table. And such are the Judgments of God, Who banishes some from His Presence through Justice, but admits others to it through Grace. His Judgments are a great deep! "Who is able to declare His works?

For who shall search out His glorious acts?" [Ecclus. XVIII. 4]

    1. How secret were the Judgments of God about Nabuchodonosor, and that Pharao which knew not Joseph! [Exod. I. 8] S. Augustine well says concerning them:-----"Nabuchodonosor, having been scourged after his numberless iniquities, merited repentance which brought forth good fruit; while on the other hand Pharao was made more obdurate by the very scourges and perished. Both were kings and wicked ones; both were admonished by scourges; and what, I pray, made their ends so different? One of them, when he felt the hand of God, bewailed his sin, and came to his senses; the other, refusing to acknowledge the Will of God, continued in his sins and perished." And so it is that the same medicine, compounded by the same hand, affects two persons, who are laboring under the very same disease, in an entirely different way, and leads one to health, the other to the grave. Thus the two thieves who were crucified with Christ were equally guilty, and were punished in the same way by the self-same death, and yet after death they shared habitations as different as it was possible to be! The Judgments of God are a great deep!

   That excellent king Asa, who "did that which was good and pleasing in the sight of his God, and destroyed the altars of foreign worship, and the high places, and broke the statues, and cut down the groves" [2 Par. XIV. 2, 3], he, I say, who was the best of kings, yet at the end of his reign corrupted his earlier praise. For a long time he bore himself illustriously, for thirty years he might have been considered a pattern for the most excellent princes; but at length, trusting in the king of Syria more than in God, he threw into prison the prophet Hanani who rebuked him for what he had done, slew many of the people, and, being afflicted with a painful disease in his feet, trusted more to the skill of physicians than to the Divine aid. Alas! how little did his end answer to his beginning! How was that holy king changed from himself! And, on the other hand, Manasses, a most wicked king, who disfigured the whole of his life with infamy through his evil deeds, at length came to himself, and crowned his bad beginning with a noble end. Thy Judgments, O my God, are a great deep,-----too deep to fathom!

    2. What objects of wonder are Saul and David! Both of them at the beginning were deserving of praise; both fell into grievous sins, to the scandal of the whole kingdom; for this both were punished, but with what a different effect! Saul, a man of obstinate impiety, perished most miserably; David turned his punishment into healing discipline, and thereby became a man after God's Own Heart. And here it is impiety to ask "why is this?" That "why" came from the school of the devil. Many have been ruined by that querulous "why" and "wherefore." "Why hath God commanded you?" [Gen. III. I] asked at the beginning the subtlest of serpents. To whom they oughtto have replied, "We know that God has commanded, but why He has commanded is not for us to inquire. It is the Will of the Lord, and the grounds of this Will are not to be investigated by us." "For who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been His counselor? Or who hath first given to Him, and recompense shall be made him? For of Him, and by Him, and in Him are all things." [Rom. XI. 34-36] But perhaps some one will say, "Yet it may be lawful to require some reason for this or that command." From whom? from God-----to Whom alone that which He pleases is lawful, and Whom nothing pleases but that which is lawful?

   How wonderful also is it that the Samaritans with the utmost readiness believe our Lord's words, and pray Him to remain with them, while the Gerasens are unbelieving, and pray Him to depart from them! The faithless Jews cannot be induced by words, or deeds, or by any wonders and miracles to believe in the Truth. Thy Judgments, O Lord, are a great deep!

   Julian of Alexandria, a holy Martyr, being deprived of the use of his feet, was carried in a chair to the judgment-seat by two servants. One of them, renouncing his faith and his master, apostatized most disgracefully; the other, Eunus by name, remained faithful to God and his master; and so both of them, having been placed on camels, and scourged through the whole city of Alexandria, were at length thrown together into a fire, and ended their life most holily. When Besa, a soldier, saw them, and, through pity for the innocent, tried to restrain the violence ot the wonted crowd, he was accused before the judge and beheaded. In truth he received the reward intended for that traitor. Thy Judgments, O Lord, are a great deep!

     "O Lord, how great are Thy works; Thy thoughts are exceeding deep. The senseless man shall not know; nor will the fool understand these things." [Ps. XCI. 6, 7] Truly Thou art a God that hideth Thyself! In the year 1117, when the whole of Italy was disturbed by earthquakes, it is related that some of the nobles of Milan were sitting in a tower, engaged in business of the state, when a voice was heard outside, which called one of them by name to come out. At first he hesitated, and doubted who called, and who it was that was called and so he sat still, and waited for a repetition of the summons, when behold! a stranger presented himself at the door, and begged him to come out. He had scarcely gone a few steps from the place when the tower fell, and buried them all! Now why should this man alone, and none of the rest, have been preserved from death? The Judgments of God are a great deep! Who can fail to see that in this case the miracles of old time were repeated? Thus it was that an Angel led out Lot and his family from the destruction of Sodom. Thus likewise a thousand others, amid the multitude of those who perished, have been saved from destruction.

      In the year 1597, there lived at Monreale, in Sicily, a man abandoned to an evil life, who had been often admonished that he should give up his impure life. Still the wretched man persisted in his wickedness, and after the last warning was stabbed in the lap of the wretched companion of his sin. Another man, of similar habits, who for many years had lived in impurity, when he heard of this sad death, determined to grow wise through another man's sin, and reconciled himself to God. And what can I here exclaim again, but this same, Thy Judgments, O Lord, are past finding out!

3. And it was this which hurried away S. Paul into such great wonder. To those twins, Esau and Jacob, when they were not as yet born, and had done no good or evil, it was said,-----"Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated. What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? God forbid. O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, why hast Thou made me thus? Or hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?" [Rom. IX. 13, 14, 20, 21] The goldsmith fashions his silver and gold, the potter the clay, according to his will, although between the potter and the clay there is not even the shadow of such a relationship as exists between God and man, the vilest worm of earth. Who therefore will say to God, "Why dost Thou so?" [Job IX. 12] 

   Dorotheus relates that a ship full of slaves for sale once upon a time arrived at a certain city. Now there was in that place a virgin of most saintly life, and who was entirely devoted to the care of her soul. She was exceedingly pleased that an opportunity was afforded her of purchasing from the ship a little maid whom she might train, under her own immediate guidance, while she was still of a teachable age, to sanctity of life. And, fortunately, the captain had two little damsels, one of whom the lady bought at a high price. She had hardly left the ship when there arrived a woman of profligate manners, who acted plays with a dancing-girl; and she having bid for the other little maid, when she heard that she might be obtained for a trifling sum, bought her and carried her away. Alas! wretched little one, who hast fallen to a mistress as wicked as the other has to a good one! And who can here search out the depth of the Divine Judgment? Both of these little maids were of an innocent age, both were offered for sale, both were ignorant of the lot which awaited them, both, like a new vase, would preserve the odor of that which they earliest imbibed; and yet the one, from being trained in manners becoming a maiden, without difficulty became accustomed to the practice of virtue from her tenderest years, and in this way worthy of the companionship of Angels; while the other, being instructed by that Fury in every kind of wantonness and profligacy, and imitating too successfully the abandoned manners of her mistress, became a veritable prey for the Devil. And yet she would have been different, if she had had a different mistress. But, "Thy Judgments, O Lord, are a great deep!"

The experience also of S. Gregory the Great, in his own family, is much the same. This most holy man had three aunts on his father's side, all of whom devoted themselves to Christ, and the Society of Holy Virgins. The first two preserved the vow of virginity with the utmost fidelity, and finished their life by a most blessed end. But the third, Gordiana, would listen to no admonitions, and so, greedily devouring the baits of sin, burst at length from all restraint, left the Society, and married a farm-bailiff. "O Lord, Thy Judgments are a great deep!" Let no one try to fathom them! "Behold, God is great, exceeding our knowledge. Who can search out His ways?" 

[Job XXXVI. 23, 26] King David is very cautious here,-----"I am become," he says, ''as a beast before Thee." [Ps. LXXII. 21] Into Thy Judgments, O my God, I do not pry; I behave as Thy beast. It is the part of a beast to obey the command of his master, not to discuss his orders. And what wonder is it that a man who had not been educated in the Schools, but who had passed the earliest days of his youth in tending a flock, should think thus of himself, when the very Seraphim, those most glorious spirits, do the same? For, when question was in Heaven concerning the rejection of the Jews, the Seraphim covered their face and feet with two wings each [Isai. VI. 2], confessing that they could not by their knowledge attain to such a height, as worthily to extol the wonderful works of God; that the Divine Judgments surpass all power of understanding; and that they are therefore content to know that the Deity is thrice holy,-----holy in Itself, holy in Its Judgments, holy in Its Works. If, then, the most glorious Angels thus adore the secret Judgments of God, how much more ought we, who are utterly insignificant men of earth, to exclaim, "The Lord is faithful in all His words, and holy in all His works?" [Ps. CXLIV. 17] And here let that most admirable saying of S. Augustine be a comfort to everyone: "God is able to save some without any good deserts, because He is Good. He cannot condemn any without evil deserts, because He is Just."

4. We behold wonderful revolutions in the world, continual changes, events altogether unexpected, and sometimes we say, "Pray let us see how the thing will end." After a time we do see, and are astonished, muttering to ourselves some such freezing exclamation as "I could not have thought it!" But we know not, miserable creatures that we are, what will follow; and however things may turn out, the reason of them is not to be asked,-----"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are My ways exalted above your ways, and My thoughts above your thoughts." [Isai. LV. 8, 9] To inquire the reason of the secret Counsel of God is nothing else, according to S. Gregory, than to wax wanton against His Ordinance. It becomes us to say at all times with Blessed Paul, "O the depth of the riches of the Wisdom and of the Knowledge of God! How incomprehensible are His Judgments, and how unsearchable His ways!" [Rom. XI. 33] In this life there are many things which we shall never rightly search out. Let it suffice us to know that God is not unjust, and that at the last day there will not be one who will not be constrained to say, "Righteous art Thou, O Lord, and true is Thy Judgment." King David, indeed, tried his utmost to search out the secret Judgments of God. "I studied," he says, "that I might know this thing." [Ps. LXXII. 16] But at length, not finding any end to his search,-----"It is a labor in my sight," he confesses, "until I go into the sanctuary of God." This knowledge of secret things must be postponed for a better world.
 

   Let us, therefore, also fold the wings of a curious mind. The regular flow and ebb of the sea has exercised all the learning of philosophers, and how can we fathom the most profound recesses of the Divine Judgments? Who can find out why one was born in Turkey, and another among Christians? Why the Gospel of Christ has come so late into many countries, and meanwhile so many thousands of men have perished while the same Gospel has early been spread in other provinces? What is the reason why one country is throughout its entire length infected with heresy, while another flourishes in entire freedom from all contamination of it? Why does the Divine Vengeance pass by some, while it falls upon others? Why are some innocent people overthrown, and why do the sins of ancestors descend to their posterity? Why were so many expeditions of kings and emperors undertaken in vain for the recovery of the Holy Land? Let us shrink from asking why God gave to Adam place for repentance, but not to Lucifer. Why Christ showed mercy on Peter, but not on Iscariot. Why one person dies in the cradle, another in old age. Why one perishes in depravity, though he has not been depraved for long, while another recovers himself from depravity, though he has for a long time wallowed in vice. Why one is rolling in riches, while another has neither bread nor money. What meanest thou, O wandering mind, by this curious inquiry? Do you desire to touch that heavenly fire of the Divine Judgment? You will be melted with the heat. Do you wish to scale the citadel of Providence? You will fall. Just as moths and other tiny insects ever and anon in the evening fly round the light of a candle till they are burnt, so the human mind disports itself around that hidden flame We have the eyes of bats for this sun. We are only human; we understand not the secret Counsels of God "The works of the Highest only are wonderful, and His works are hidden." [Ecclus. XI. 4] There never was a man who could at the same time read a book written within and without. That book of the Divine Judgments is written within full of Predestination, without of Providence. The Eternal, all-wise God has "ordered all things in measure, and number, and weight; and who shall resist the strength of His Arm?" [Wisdom XI. 2 I, 22] Let us rest assured of this, that the Cause before all causes is THE WILL OF GOD, and he who seeks a different cause than this is ignorant of the strength and power of the Divine Nature; for it is necessary that every cause should in a certain way be prior to, and greater than, its own effect; but nothing is prior to, nothing is greater than, God and His Will. Of this, therefore, there is no cause. And what more do you now desire? God has permitted, God has willed, God has done! The Will of God is, as Salvian rightly and piously says, Supreme Justice. It is the most consummate wisdom quietly to acquiesce in the Decrees of the Divine Will and Providence.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Credo in Deum

[Maggyie]

Tldr. Again you believe that God creates souls just to beaver dam them. 

[Credo in Deum]

7 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

Tldr. Again you believe that God creates souls just to beaver dam them. 

You should try reading. It might help.

[Credo in Deum]

Now I know he's old and therefore most here will view his teaching as antiquated - despite that truth is timeless- but Saint Alphonsus writes:

 

2. Conformity in all Things.

The essence of perfection is to embrace the will of God in all things, prosperous or adverse. In prosperity, even sinners find it easy to unite themselves to the divine will; but it takes saints to unite themselves to God’s will when things go wrong and are painful to self-love. Our conduct in such instances is the measure of our love of God. St. John of Avila used to say: “One ‘Blessed be God’ in times of adversity, is worth more than a thousand acts of gratitude in times of prosperity[20].”

Furthermore, we must unite ourselves to God’s will not only in things that come to us directly from his hands, such as sickness, desolation, poverty, death of relatives, but likewise in those we suffer from man -- for example, contempt, injustice, loss of reputation, loss of temporal goods and all kinds of persecution. On these occasions we must remember that whilst God does not will the sin, he does will our humiliation, our poverty, or our mortification, as the case may be. It is certain and of faith, that whatever happens, happens by the will of God: “I am the Lord forming the light and creating the darkness, making peace and creating evil[21].” From God come all things, good as well as evil. We call adversities evil; actually they are good and meritorious, when we receive them as coming from God’s hands: “Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord hath not done[22]?” “Good things and evil, life and death, poverty and riches are from God[23].”

It is true, when one offends us unjustly, God does not will his sin, nor does he concur in the sinner’s bad will; but God does, in a general way, concur in the material action by which such a one strikes us, robs us or does us an injury, so that God certainly wills the offense we suffer and it comes to us from his hands. Thus the Lord told David he would be the author of those things he would suffer at the hands of Absalom: “I will raise up evils against thee out of thy own house, and I will take thy wives before thy face and give them to thy neighbor[24].” Hence too God told the Jews that in punishment for their sins, he would send the Assyrians to plunder them and spread destruction among them: “The Assyrian is the rod and staff of my anger . . . I will send him to take away the spoils[25].” “Assyrian wickedness served as God’s scourge for the Hebrews[26]‘‘ is St. Augustine’s comment on this text. And our Lord himself told St. Peter that his sacred passion came not so much from man as from his Father: “The chalice which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it[27]?”

Edited June 26, 2016 by Credo in Deum

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Credo in Deum said:

Before I read this book I used to think much of the same way as the above posts. I used to say "I can't believe God would this or that", but then I realized I was attached to a God of my own understanding. 

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.  For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts."--Isaiah 55:8-9

 

 

3 hours ago, Credo in Deum said:

We have a hard time accepting that when it comes to the Judgments of God we are not owed an explanation from Him.

 

3 hours ago, Spem in alium said:

. My belief is that God has a direct involvement in our lives because we are His creation, but He does not actively cause us to suffer.

And you are right. We tend to ask "Why?" of God - myself included. There are many things we will never know about God, and we have to be content with that - as much as we can be, anyway!

3 hours ago, Credo in Deum said:

There is an expression used often and it is "the truth hurts". Should we leave truth because it hurts? I believe God is responsible for everything and so when something happens I don't ask "Why did God do this to me?!" or "Why does God hate me?", since we know God does all things for our sanctification.  God has caused you difficulties and he has done this not because he enjoys seeing you suffer but because He wants you to be a saint! There isn't a malicious intent behind His reasons, but this does not mean there will not be suffering! My Personal trainer causes me suffering, but I don't call him mean or view him has hating me because of it. He causes me suffering because he knows what the end result will be for me if I take his instruction correctly and work through the pain.

 

To all the above.

Quote

"God has caused you difficulties and he has done this not because he enjoys seeing you suffer but because He wants you to be a saint! " (Spem in alium)

Easy to forget in our secular world, with all the secular concepts and reasoning and concepts - and we are probably bombarded daily consciously and even unconsciously - that we are not here on earth for endless happiness - endless happiness is for Heaven only after we leave this earth.  We are here to become saints and that means walking in the footsteps of Jesus and "No Christ without His Cross".

When I look at the suffering in this world, the horrendous sufferings at times (often of the very innocent), the logical question is not "Why me?", but rather "Why not me?"

[Ice_nine]

On 6/25/2016 at 8:10 PM, Nihil Obstat said:

Cagey? That is kind of rude.

er, sorry. I didn't know that was a rude thing to say. My bad

[Seven77]

On 6/26/2016 at 2:00 PM, Credo in Deum said:

Before I read this book I used to think much of the same way as the above posts. I used to say "I can't believe God would this or that", but then I realized I was attached to a God of my own understanding. 

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.  For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts."--Isaiah 55:8-9

 

Here's the problem: sometimes, it is possible,  Saints' thoughts are not always God's thoughts unless there is a conformity with  Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium.  Also, what if your view of what St. Alphonsus is based on misunderstanding what he is saying.

 St. Alphonsus,  great Saint and Doctor of the Church that he is, may not have thought how God thinks at different points of his life.  And on top of that, your thoughts might not be St. Alphonsus' thoughts.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Seven77

[Credo in Deum]

1 hour ago, Seven77 said:

Here's the problem: sometimes, it is possible,  Saints' thoughts are not always God's thoughts unless there is a conformity with  Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium.  Also, what if your view of what St. Alphonsus is based on misunderstanding what he is saying.

 St. Alphonsus,  great Saint and Doctor of the Church that he is, may not have thought how God thinks at different points of his life.  And on top of that, your thoughts might not be St. Alphonsus' thoughts.

I only read material with a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, so its orthodoxy is not in question. 

Sure, there is a possibility I am taking his words incorrectly, and if so then please help me.  Please give me writings from the Church and approved literature which oppose my interpretation.  Don't just come here and say "you might have it wrong" since that doesn't mean anything to me.  I might have it right, have you thought about that?

So far the only rebuttals I've received deal with how people "feel" about how God does things. No one has provided literature approved by the Church to back up their point.  

Edited June 27, 2016 by Credo in Deum

[Credo in Deum]

Some more reading for reflection can be found here: https://www.olrl.org/snt_docs/trustful/p1ch3.shtml#subchapter6

Ascribing everything as coming from the Divine Hand, because it does, has been the practice of all the saints.  This is why St. Teresa prayed to God to save us from sour-faced saints, because if you understand that all things come from God's Hand there is nothing to be sour-faced about!

 

Edited June 27, 2016 by Credo in Deum

[Credo in Deum]

From Saint Claude de la Columbière

1.   CONSOLING TRUTHS

It is one of the most firmly established and most consoling of the truths that have been revealed to us that (apart from sin) nothing happens to us in life unless God wills it so.  Wealth and poverty alike come from Him. If we fall ill, God is the cause of our illness; if we get well, our recovery is due to God. We owe our lives entirely to Him, and when death comes to put an end to life, His will be the hand that deals the blow.

But should we attribute it to God when we are unjustly persecuted? Yes, He is the only person you can charge with the wrong you suffer. He is not the cause of the sin the person commits by ill-treating you, but He is the cause of the suffering that person inflicts on you while sinning.

God did not inspire your enemy with the will to harm you, but He gave him the power to do so. If you receive a wound, do not doubt but that it is God Himself who has wounded you. If all living creatures were to league themselves against you, unless the Creator wished it and joined with them and gave them the strength and means to carry out their purpose, they would never succeed. You would have no power over me if it had not been given you from above, the Savior of the world said to Pilate. We can say the same to demons and men, to the brute beasts and to whatever exists -- You would not be able to disturb me or harm me as you do unless God had ordered it so. You are sent by Him, you are given the power by Him to tempt me and to make me suffer. You would have no power over me if it had not been given you from above.

If from time to time we meditated seriously on this truth of our faith it would be enough to stifle all complaint in whatever loss or misfortune we suffer. What I have the Lord gave me, it has been taken away by Him. It is not a lawsuit or a thief that has ruined you or a certain person that has slandered you; if your child dies it is not by accident or wrong treatment, but because God, to whom all belongs, has not wished you to keep it longer.

https://www.olrl.org/snt_docs/trustful/

[Maggyie]

Yes, so God willed the concentration camps of the world, and God wills each and every abortion. 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

It is one of the most firmly established and most consoling of the truths that have been revealed to us that (apart from sin) nothing happens to us in life unless God wills it so

Mortal and venial sin, imperfections, cannot exist in any way unless permitted by God/Permissive Will of God (Doctrine of Divine Providence i.e. Direct and Permissive Will of God).  This doctrine can be misunderstood (nothing passive about it) in that the good God intends to cause from sin and imperfection of any kind might well be, or arise from, the struggle in some way against them. 

In the early years of my own bipolar illness and while in hospital, my SD (dec'd) visited me (priest and theologian lecturing in our seminary the).  I said to him "If God wants me ill and in hospital, then I am content to be here".  Father replied "I can assure you, girl, God does not want you ill and in hospital at all." That statement began my struggle against the illness and it's wake.  Many years later, I came across the Doctrine of Divine Providence ("Abandonment to Divine Providence, Jean Paul de Caussade).  It was probably that work by de Caussade that afforded me deeper insight into the theology of St Therese of Lisieux.

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http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm

Catholic Catechism: "324 The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

 

311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. [Cf. St. Augustine, De libero arbitrio I, 1, 2: PL 32, 1221- 1223; St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II, 79, 1] He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it: [396 1849]

For almighty God..., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself. [St. Augustine, Enchiridion II, 3: PL 40, 236]

The writings of some of our saints from out the past might reflect quite accurately our spiritual and theological understandings of their own day.  Today however, The Church, a living and growing organism, may have deeper insights into theological and spiritual realities than in that long ago.  To me, this does not negate writings of the saints from the past at all - but for me it does mean that in reading these hundreds of years old writings, I do need to have a grasp on the theological and spiritual understandings and teachings of The Church today.  I need to understand (from a rational and common sense viewpoint) why at times writings from the saints might seem to differ.

To read fully on Divine Providence go to Catholic Catechism http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm ......scroll down to "V. GOD CARRIES OUT HIS PLAN: DIVINE PROVIDENCE "

 

[Credo in Deum]

3 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Mortal and venial sin, imperfections, cannot exist in any way unless permitted by God/Permissive Will of God (Doctrine of Divine Providence i.e. Direct and Permissive Will of God).  This doctrine can be misunderstood (nothing passive about it) in that the good God intends to cause from sin and imperfection of any kind might well be, or arise from, the struggle in some way against them. 

In the early years of my own bipolar illness and while in hospital, my SD (dec'd) visited me (priest and theologian lecturing in our seminary the).  I said to him "If God wants me ill and in hospital, then I am content to be here".  Father replied "I can assure you, girl, God does not want you ill and in hospital at all." That statement began my struggle against the illness and it's wake.  Many years later, I came across the Doctrine of Divine Providence ("Abandonment to Divine Providence, Jean Paul de Caussade).  It was probably that work by de Caussade that afforded me deeper insight into the theology of St Therese of Lisieux.

The writings of some of our saints from out the past might reflect quite accurately our spiritual and theological understandings of their own day.  Today however, The Church, a living and growing organism, may have deeper insights into theological and spiritual realities than in that long ago.  To me, this does not negate writings of the saints from the past at all - but for me it does mean that in reading these hundreds of years old writings, I do need to have a grasp on the theological and spiritual understandings and teachings of The Church today.  I need to understand (from a rational and common sense viewpoint) why at times writings from the saints might seem to differ.

To read fully on Divine Providence go to Catholic Catechism http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm ......scroll down to "V. GOD CARRIES OUT HIS PLAN: DIVINE PROVIDENCE "

 

What your priest said does not contradict what has been taught in the writings I've posted.  We are called to search out God's will and one way of doing this is by combating illnesses when they arise. We can be assured it was Gods will that you become ill and that it was God's will that you recover, if you do recover.  Yet if we are to do everything we can and still continue to have illnesses, then we can be assured that it is God's will that they remain.