Thoughts On Suffering

[Credo in Deum]

Now I know he's old and therefore most here will view his teaching as antiquated - despite that truth is timeless- but Saint Alphonsus writes:

 

2. Conformity in all Things.

The essence of perfection is to embrace the will of God in all things, prosperous or adverse. In prosperity, even sinners find it easy to unite themselves to the divine will; but it takes saints to unite themselves to God’s will when things go wrong and are painful to self-love. Our conduct in such instances is the measure of our love of God. St. John of Avila used to say: “One ‘Blessed be God’ in times of adversity, is worth more than a thousand acts of gratitude in times of prosperity[20].”

Furthermore, we must unite ourselves to God’s will not only in things that come to us directly from his hands, such as sickness, desolation, poverty, death of relatives, but likewise in those we suffer from man -- for example, contempt, injustice, loss of reputation, loss of temporal goods and all kinds of persecution. On these occasions we must remember that whilst God does not will the sin, he does will our humiliation, our poverty, or our mortification, as the case may be. It is certain and of faith, that whatever happens, happens by the will of God: “I am the Lord forming the light and creating the darkness, making peace and creating evil[21].” From God come all things, good as well as evil. We call adversities evil; actually they are good and meritorious, when we receive them as coming from God’s hands: “Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord hath not done[22]?” “Good things and evil, life and death, poverty and riches are from God[23].”

It is true, when one offends us unjustly, God does not will his sin, nor does he concur in the sinner’s bad will; but God does, in a general way, concur in the material action by which such a one strikes us, robs us or does us an injury, so that God certainly wills the offense we suffer and it comes to us from his hands. Thus the Lord told David he would be the author of those things he would suffer at the hands of Absalom: “I will raise up evils against thee out of thy own house, and I will take thy wives before thy face and give them to thy neighbor[24].” Hence too God told the Jews that in punishment for their sins, he would send the Assyrians to plunder them and spread destruction among them: “The Assyrian is the rod and staff of my anger . . . I will send him to take away the spoils[25].” “Assyrian wickedness served as God’s scourge for the Hebrews[26]‘‘ is St. Augustine’s comment on this text. And our Lord himself told St. Peter that his sacred passion came not so much from man as from his Father: “The chalice which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it[27]?”

Edited June 26, 2016 by Credo in Deum

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Credo in Deum said:

Before I read this book I used to think much of the same way as the above posts. I used to say "I can't believe God would this or that", but then I realized I was attached to a God of my own understanding. 

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.  For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts."--Isaiah 55:8-9

 

 

3 hours ago, Credo in Deum said:

We have a hard time accepting that when it comes to the Judgments of God we are not owed an explanation from Him.

 

3 hours ago, Spem in alium said:

. My belief is that God has a direct involvement in our lives because we are His creation, but He does not actively cause us to suffer.

And you are right. We tend to ask "Why?" of God - myself included. There are many things we will never know about God, and we have to be content with that - as much as we can be, anyway!

3 hours ago, Credo in Deum said:

There is an expression used often and it is "the truth hurts". Should we leave truth because it hurts? I believe God is responsible for everything and so when something happens I don't ask "Why did God do this to me?!" or "Why does God hate me?", since we know God does all things for our sanctification.  God has caused you difficulties and he has done this not because he enjoys seeing you suffer but because He wants you to be a saint! There isn't a malicious intent behind His reasons, but this does not mean there will not be suffering! My Personal trainer causes me suffering, but I don't call him mean or view him has hating me because of it. He causes me suffering because he knows what the end result will be for me if I take his instruction correctly and work through the pain.

 

To all the above.

Quote

"God has caused you difficulties and he has done this not because he enjoys seeing you suffer but because He wants you to be a saint! " (Spem in alium)

Easy to forget in our secular world, with all the secular concepts and reasoning and concepts - and we are probably bombarded daily consciously and even unconsciously - that we are not here on earth for endless happiness - endless happiness is for Heaven only after we leave this earth.  We are here to become saints and that means walking in the footsteps of Jesus and "No Christ without His Cross".

When I look at the suffering in this world, the horrendous sufferings at times (often of the very innocent), the logical question is not "Why me?", but rather "Why not me?"

[Ice_nine]

On 6/25/2016 at 8:10 PM, Nihil Obstat said:

Cagey? That is kind of rude.

er, sorry. I didn't know that was a rude thing to say. My bad

[Seven77]

On 6/26/2016 at 2:00 PM, Credo in Deum said:

Before I read this book I used to think much of the same way as the above posts. I used to say "I can't believe God would this or that", but then I realized I was attached to a God of my own understanding. 

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.  For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts."--Isaiah 55:8-9

 

Here's the problem: sometimes, it is possible,  Saints' thoughts are not always God's thoughts unless there is a conformity with  Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium.  Also, what if your view of what St. Alphonsus is based on misunderstanding what he is saying.

 St. Alphonsus,  great Saint and Doctor of the Church that he is, may not have thought how God thinks at different points of his life.  And on top of that, your thoughts might not be St. Alphonsus' thoughts.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Seven77

[Credo in Deum]

1 hour ago, Seven77 said:

Here's the problem: sometimes, it is possible,  Saints' thoughts are not always God's thoughts unless there is a conformity with  Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium.  Also, what if your view of what St. Alphonsus is based on misunderstanding what he is saying.

 St. Alphonsus,  great Saint and Doctor of the Church that he is, may not have thought how God thinks at different points of his life.  And on top of that, your thoughts might not be St. Alphonsus' thoughts.

I only read material with a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, so its orthodoxy is not in question. 

Sure, there is a possibility I am taking his words incorrectly, and if so then please help me.  Please give me writings from the Church and approved literature which oppose my interpretation.  Don't just come here and say "you might have it wrong" since that doesn't mean anything to me.  I might have it right, have you thought about that?

So far the only rebuttals I've received deal with how people "feel" about how God does things. No one has provided literature approved by the Church to back up their point.  

Edited June 27, 2016 by Credo in Deum

[Credo in Deum]

Some more reading for reflection can be found here: https://www.olrl.org/snt_docs/trustful/p1ch3.shtml#subchapter6

Ascribing everything as coming from the Divine Hand, because it does, has been the practice of all the saints.  This is why St. Teresa prayed to God to save us from sour-faced saints, because if you understand that all things come from God's Hand there is nothing to be sour-faced about!

 

Edited June 27, 2016 by Credo in Deum

[Credo in Deum]

From Saint Claude de la Columbière

1.   CONSOLING TRUTHS

It is one of the most firmly established and most consoling of the truths that have been revealed to us that (apart from sin) nothing happens to us in life unless God wills it so.  Wealth and poverty alike come from Him. If we fall ill, God is the cause of our illness; if we get well, our recovery is due to God. We owe our lives entirely to Him, and when death comes to put an end to life, His will be the hand that deals the blow.

But should we attribute it to God when we are unjustly persecuted? Yes, He is the only person you can charge with the wrong you suffer. He is not the cause of the sin the person commits by ill-treating you, but He is the cause of the suffering that person inflicts on you while sinning.

God did not inspire your enemy with the will to harm you, but He gave him the power to do so. If you receive a wound, do not doubt but that it is God Himself who has wounded you. If all living creatures were to league themselves against you, unless the Creator wished it and joined with them and gave them the strength and means to carry out their purpose, they would never succeed. You would have no power over me if it had not been given you from above, the Savior of the world said to Pilate. We can say the same to demons and men, to the brute beasts and to whatever exists -- You would not be able to disturb me or harm me as you do unless God had ordered it so. You are sent by Him, you are given the power by Him to tempt me and to make me suffer. You would have no power over me if it had not been given you from above.

If from time to time we meditated seriously on this truth of our faith it would be enough to stifle all complaint in whatever loss or misfortune we suffer. What I have the Lord gave me, it has been taken away by Him. It is not a lawsuit or a thief that has ruined you or a certain person that has slandered you; if your child dies it is not by accident or wrong treatment, but because God, to whom all belongs, has not wished you to keep it longer.

https://www.olrl.org/snt_docs/trustful/

[Maggyie]

Yes, so God willed the concentration camps of the world, and God wills each and every abortion. 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

It is one of the most firmly established and most consoling of the truths that have been revealed to us that (apart from sin) nothing happens to us in life unless God wills it so

Mortal and venial sin, imperfections, cannot exist in any way unless permitted by God/Permissive Will of God (Doctrine of Divine Providence i.e. Direct and Permissive Will of God).  This doctrine can be misunderstood (nothing passive about it) in that the good God intends to cause from sin and imperfection of any kind might well be, or arise from, the struggle in some way against them. 

In the early years of my own bipolar illness and while in hospital, my SD (dec'd) visited me (priest and theologian lecturing in our seminary the).  I said to him "If God wants me ill and in hospital, then I am content to be here".  Father replied "I can assure you, girl, God does not want you ill and in hospital at all." That statement began my struggle against the illness and it's wake.  Many years later, I came across the Doctrine of Divine Providence ("Abandonment to Divine Providence, Jean Paul de Caussade).  It was probably that work by de Caussade that afforded me deeper insight into the theology of St Therese of Lisieux.

Quote

Quote

 

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm

Catholic Catechism: "324 The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

 

311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. [Cf. St. Augustine, De libero arbitrio I, 1, 2: PL 32, 1221- 1223; St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II, 79, 1] He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it: [396 1849]

For almighty God..., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself. [St. Augustine, Enchiridion II, 3: PL 40, 236]

The writings of some of our saints from out the past might reflect quite accurately our spiritual and theological understandings of their own day.  Today however, The Church, a living and growing organism, may have deeper insights into theological and spiritual realities than in that long ago.  To me, this does not negate writings of the saints from the past at all - but for me it does mean that in reading these hundreds of years old writings, I do need to have a grasp on the theological and spiritual understandings and teachings of The Church today.  I need to understand (from a rational and common sense viewpoint) why at times writings from the saints might seem to differ.

To read fully on Divine Providence go to Catholic Catechism http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm ......scroll down to "V. GOD CARRIES OUT HIS PLAN: DIVINE PROVIDENCE "

 

[Credo in Deum]

3 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Mortal and venial sin, imperfections, cannot exist in any way unless permitted by God/Permissive Will of God (Doctrine of Divine Providence i.e. Direct and Permissive Will of God).  This doctrine can be misunderstood (nothing passive about it) in that the good God intends to cause from sin and imperfection of any kind might well be, or arise from, the struggle in some way against them. 

In the early years of my own bipolar illness and while in hospital, my SD (dec'd) visited me (priest and theologian lecturing in our seminary the).  I said to him "If God wants me ill and in hospital, then I am content to be here".  Father replied "I can assure you, girl, God does not want you ill and in hospital at all." That statement began my struggle against the illness and it's wake.  Many years later, I came across the Doctrine of Divine Providence ("Abandonment to Divine Providence, Jean Paul de Caussade).  It was probably that work by de Caussade that afforded me deeper insight into the theology of St Therese of Lisieux.

The writings of some of our saints from out the past might reflect quite accurately our spiritual and theological understandings of their own day.  Today however, The Church, a living and growing organism, may have deeper insights into theological and spiritual realities than in that long ago.  To me, this does not negate writings of the saints from the past at all - but for me it does mean that in reading these hundreds of years old writings, I do need to have a grasp on the theological and spiritual understandings and teachings of The Church today.  I need to understand (from a rational and common sense viewpoint) why at times writings from the saints might seem to differ.

To read fully on Divine Providence go to Catholic Catechism http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm ......scroll down to "V. GOD CARRIES OUT HIS PLAN: DIVINE PROVIDENCE "

 

What your priest said does not contradict what has been taught in the writings I've posted.  We are called to search out God's will and one way of doing this is by combating illnesses when they arise. We can be assured it was Gods will that you become ill and that it was God's will that you recover, if you do recover.  Yet if we are to do everything we can and still continue to have illnesses, then we can be assured that it is God's will that they remain. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

Yes, so God willed the concentration camps of the world, and God wills each and every abortion. 

No, God does not directly will the above.  Mysteriously to us mortals, He has permitted them (Doctrine of Divine Providence).  To my way of thinking, if God is Ultimate Mystery , then understandable to me that sometimes He will act most mysteriously to my human limitations and fallibility.  We think we know what is good and what is right - but to me it is those qualities that also got screwed up with the fall of Adam and Eve (i.e. original sin in the wake)

We only have words to explain the inexplicable.

 

[Maggyie]

8 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

No, God does not directly will the above.  Mysteriously to us mortals, He has permitted them (Doctrine of Divine Providence).  To my way of thinking, if God is Ultimate Mystery , then understandable to me that sometimes He will act most mysteriously to my human limitations and fallibility.  We think we know what is good and what is right - but to me it is those qualities that also got screwed up with the fall of Adam and Eve (i.e. original sin in the wake)

We only have words to explain the inexplicable.

 

I don't know, the writings Credo posts show that God would never allow abortion unless he willed it to happen. Everything that happens is because God wants it - if you suffer because you have been raped for instance, that trauma comes from God. Or ISIS making young girls into sex slaves or burning people alive - God desires all that misery. Nothing mysterious about it. I accept that this probably is the official doctrine. Maybe Christianity is the wrong religion for me. 

Edited June 28, 2016 by Maggyie

[Spem in alium]

7 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

No, God does not directly will the above.  Mysteriously to us mortals, He has permitted them (Doctrine of Divine Providence).  To my way of thinking, if God is Ultimate Mystery , then understandable to me that sometimes He will act most mysteriously to my human limitations and fallibility.  We think we know what is good and what is right - but to me it is those qualities that also got screwed up with the fall of Adam and Eve (i.e. original sin in the wake)

We only have words to explain the inexplicable.

This is the view I hold to - God permits suffering to happen, but He does not will it. God loves us in a way unlike human love, in a way we can't understand at all. I firmly believe that if He loves me so deeply, and in a way I can never be loved by anyone else, He will never willingly cause me pain or suffering. And maybe God wants us to ask of Him why something happened, or why a particular situation had to be so hard, simply because He desires us to go to Him in our suffering and find comfort there. 

God heals our wounds and wants us to trust Him. How then could He both willingly cause suffering, atrocities, etc. and then willingly heal them? I know He is all-powerful, but He is also all-good. It's a mystery to me, truly.

I am determined to read more on this, particularly from official documents of the Church. Pope Francis speaks a lot about God's mercy, and that really resonates with me -- and at the same time, it really seems to challenge the idea presented of a vengeful God.

[Credo in Deum]

21 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

I don't know, the writings Credo posts show that God would never allow abortion unless he willed it to happen. Everything that happens is because God wants it - if you suffer because you have been raped for instance, that trauma comes from God. Or ISIS making young girls into sex slaves or burning people alive - God desires all that misery. Nothing mysterious about it. I accept that this probably is the official doctrine. Maybe Christianity is the wrong religion for me. 

Maybe you need to accept God as he reveals Himself and not the God of your fancy? Our surrender to God involves our entire being, including our concepts of who we think God is. Do you think it was easy for me to accept these things? No! It was not!  Like you I couldn't fathom them, and I couldn't see how God would will such things.  It pushed me close to atheism, but then an interior voice showed me that my thinking was wrong. These horrible events are not proof of an unloving God, and had I felt that they were I would have missed the Ressurection after Good Friday. I would have looked at Christ and said "No loving God would allow/will this to happen to a sinless man" and I would have left Golgotha convinced that there was no God.  Yet now I see that the mystery of all of the horrible things which happen are played out in the drama of our Lord's life, passion, death, and resurrection! Christs life is a testament of the Goodness of a God who wills such things.  It would be hypocritical of me to celebrate Christ's life and then at the same time deny the Father's supreme right to enact the passion and crucifixion in all of us. 

 

Edited June 28, 2016 by Credo in Deum

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

What your priest said does not contradict what has been taught in the writings I've posted.  We are called to search out God's will and one way of doing this is by combating illnesses when they arise. We can be assured it was Gods will that you become ill and that it was God's will that you recover, if you do recover.  Yet if we are to do everything we can and still continue to have illnesses, then we can be assured that it is God's will that they remain. 

My problem is with your wording I think which can be misleading to me.  God does not directly nor indirectly will (i.e. initiating cause of) physical or moral evil, He permits it meaning He is not the initiating cause....in line with our Doctrine of Divine Providence.  Where does physical illness originate?  That can have a few answers.......including if one reads the Book of Job in the first or second paragraphs of Chapter One, we read that Satan must ask God's Permission to assault Job and with a condition applied by God as mandatory on Satan.

My illness was not directly brought about by God since it is an evil and how can God (as we understand Him) bring about an evil? or directly be the cause of evil; however, He did permit my illness for good reasons and I can now grasp a few of them at least with hindsight re before and after onset.  What caused or initiated my illness, that is largely mystery including to medical people, while some medical theories and theories only.  If I do all that I can to overcome bipolar - but my efforts are in vain, then I can be assured God is permitting the situation for good reason or reasons.  I might insight those reasons or I may not.  I may think I can indeed insight reasons, aware that I am not necessarily correct as to all of them.

I have never asked of God a cure for my bipolar illness, all I ever asked of Him was to be able to live my life in the community and in a contributing fashion (i.e. to cope with bipolar).  God has responded my way in my book.  I do understand that bipolar can be a most insidious illness.  I know a woman suffering bipolar seriously who went without an episode for 13 years and returned successfully to her professional career and then a few years further down the line became seriously ill with a psychotic bipolar episode and hospitalized.  Then "Why not me?"..........it might be me in the future I am well aware.  God's Will (direct and permissive) be done. Amen.

36 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

I don't know, the writings Credo posts show that God would never allow abortion unless he willed it to happen. Everything that happens is because God wants it - if you suffer because you have been raped for instance, that trauma comes from God. Or ISIS making young girls into sex slaves or burning people alive - God desires all that misery. Nothing mysterious about it. I accept that this probably is the official doctrine. Maybe Christianity is the wrong religion for me. 

Vast difference between actually willing and being the origin of evil including abortion - and permitting it (initiating cause elsewhere) as per the Catholic Catechism. That is the official doctrine i.e Divine Providence as already quoted.

Quote

Maybe Christianity is the wrong religion for me.

Prayer for your journey.  Not at all unusual to questions one's Faith and religion and I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing at all.  Sometimes clarity re the Faith and religion can be gifted with the questioning and the thoughts and research, reading etc. that goes with the questioning.

Edited June 28, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Credo in Deum]

18 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

My problem is with your wording I think which can be misleading to me.  God does not directly nor indirectly will (i.e. initiating cause of) physical or moral evil, He permits it (meaning He is not the initiating cause)....in line with our Doctrine of Divine Providence.  Where does physical illness originate?  That can have a few answers.......including (if one reads the Book of Job in the first or second paragraphs of Chapter One) we read that Satan must ask God's Permission to assault Job and with a condition applied by God as mandatory on Satan.

My illness was not directly brought about by God since it is an evil and how can God (as we understand Him) bring about an evil?) or directly be the cause of evil; however, He did permit my illness for good reasons and I can now grasp a few of them at least with hindsight re before and after onset.  What caused or initiated my illness, that is largely mystery including to medical people, while some medical theories only.  If I do all that I can to overcome bipolar - but my efforts are in vain, then I can be assured God is permitting the situation for good reason or reason.  I might insight those reasons or I may not.  I may think I can indeed insight reasons, aware that I am not necessarily correct as to all of them.

I have never asked of God a cure for my bipolar illness, all I ever asked of Him was to be able to live my life in the community and in a contributing fashion (i.e. to cope with bipolar).  God has responded favourably in my book.  I do understand that bipolar can be a most insidious illness.  I know a woman suffering bipolar seriously who went without an episode for 13 years and returned successfully to her professional career and then a few years further down the line became seriously ill with a psychotic bipolar episode and hospitalized.  Then "Why not me?"..........it might be me in the future I am well aware.  God's Will (direct and permissive) be done. Amen.

8.   SICKNESS AND INFIRMITY

We ought to conform to the will of God in sickness and infirmity and wish for what He sends us, both at the time it comes and for the time it lasts and with all the circumstances attending it, without wishing for one of them to be changed; and at the same time do all that is reasonable in our power to get well again, because God wishes it so. "For my part" says St. Alphonsus, "I call illness the touchstone of the spirit, for it is then that the true virtue of a man is discovered."  If we feel ourselves becoming impatient or rebellious we should endeavor to repress such feelings and be deeply ashamed of any attempt at opposition to the just decrees of an all-wise God.

St. Bonaventure relates that St. Francis of Assisi was afflicted by an illness which caused him great pain. One of his followers said to him, "Ask Our Lord to treat you a little more gently, for it seems to me He lays His hand too heavily upon you."  Hearing this the saint gave a cry and addressed the man in these words:  "If I did not think that what you have just said comes from the simplicity of your heart without any evil intention I would have no more to do with you, because you have been so rash as to find fault with what God does to me."  Then, though he was very weak from the length and violence of his illness, he threw himself down from the rough bed he was lying on, at the risk of breaking his bones, and kissing the floor of his cell said "I thank you, O Lord, for all the sufferings you send me. I beg you to send me a hundred times more if you think it right. I shall rejoice if it pleases you to afflict me without sparing me in any way, for the accomplishment of your holy will is my greatest consolation."

And in fact if, as St. Ephraim observes, a mule-driver knows how much his mule can carry and does not try to kill it by overloading it, and if the potter knows how long the clay should bake to be suitable for use and does not leave it longer in the kiln than is necessary, then it would show very little appreciation of God to venture to think that He who is wisdom itself and loves us with an infinite love would load our backs with too heavy a burden or leave us longer than is necessary in the fire of tribulation. We can be quite sure that the fire will not last longer or be hotter than is necessary to bake our clay to the right point.

----

Your bipolar condition was give to you by God, Barbra. It was willed by God that you have it and carry it. It is not from the devil and will never be from the devil.  

Edited June 28, 2016 by Credo in Deum

[Maggyie]

20 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

Maybe you need to accept God as he reveals Himself and not the God of your fancy? Our surrender to God involves our entire being, including our concepts of who we think God is. Do you think it was easy for me to accept these things? No! It was not!  Like you I couldn't fathom them, and I couldn't see how God would will such things.  It pushed me close to atheism, but then an interior voice showed me that my thinking was wrong. These horrible events are not proof of an unloving God, and had I felt that they were I would have missed the Ressurection after Good Friday. I would have looked at Christ and said "No loving God would allow/will this to happen to a sinless man" and I would have left Golgotha convinced that there was no God.  Yet now I see that the mystery of all of the horrible things which happen are played out in the drama of our Lord's life, passion, death, and resurrection! Christs life is a testament of the Goodness of a God who wills such things.  It would be hypocritical of me to celebrate Christ's life and then at the same time deny the Father's supreme right to enact the passion and crucifixion in all of us. 

 

When I first became convinced about Christianity, it was with reference to the Sacred Heart and Visitation spirituality - the gentle Jesus whose heart suffered for love. Later after many horrible events I instead developed an image of God as the the Lidless Eye, or All Seeing Eye of Sauron. If you do something to catch its attention, it will surely send its ring wraiths to get you. But by practicing avoidance you can put together many years of peace where it is occupied with other things. I was always convinced of God's existence, it's just a matter of whether he is a horrible, frightening Orc god. Especially when you consider that the resurrection you mention will for many just be eternal torment. 

It goes like this:

God tortures you. He doesn't have to, mind, since he is all powerful, but this is his chosen method. You don't react to the pain the way he demands you to.

So when you die... You're going to get it again, forever. 

[Credo in Deum]

4 minutes ago, Maggyie said:

When I first became convinced about Christianity, it was with reference to the Sacred Heart and Visitation spirituality - the gentle Jesus whose heart suffered for love. Later after many horrible events I instead developed an image of God as the the Lidless Eye, or All Seeing Eye of Sauron. If you do something to catch its attention, it will surely send its ring wraiths to get you. But by practicing avoidance you can put together many years of peace where it is occupied with other things. I was always convinced of God's existence, it's just a matter of whether he is a horrible, frightening Orc god. Especially when you consider that the resurrection you mention will for many just be eternal torment. 

It goes like this:

God tortures you. He doesn't have to, mind, since he is all powerful, but this is his chosen method. You don't react to the pain the way he demands you to.

So when you die... You're going to get it again, forever. 

Things to consider:

Gods will is perfect: if you suffer then it is because you need it for your sanctification.

Suffeirng is not evil.  There is nothing evil about suffering. Suffering is a medicine and like all medicine it tastes like poo.  

Suffering, like medicine, is either wasted or utilized.  

God always gives us the grace to bear it.

 

 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

We ought to conform to the will of God in sickness and infirmity and wish for what He sends us, both at the time it comes and for the time it lasts and with all the circumstances attending it, without wishing for one of them to be changed; and at the same time do all that is reasonable in our power to get well again, because God wishes it so

I agree absolutely with the wording of St. Alphonsus above.  In the Doctrine of Divine Providence, already quoted, "will of God" is inclusive of His Direct and His Permissive Will -as per Catholic Catechism already quoted.  Also if God "wishes it so" does not indicate that He is the initiating or origin and direct cause of a physical evil (illness and bipolar is an illness) rather that He wishes or permits it so (with cause of physical evil in this instance is elsewhere) for His Good reasons and we can be assured God has very good reasons and hence rest in that hopefully more than any suffering involved.  If one can rest in that mystery of God's good reasons for a suffering, then it  becomes the cause of Peace...even Joy.

Causes or origin of evil, physical or moral, can be from some natural type of cause recognised by our humanity... or even of Satan - and  sly and insidious liar and father of liars.

 

13 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

"I thank you, O Lord, for all the sufferings you send me. I beg you to send me a hundred times more if you think it right. I shall rejoice if it pleases you to afflict me without sparing me in any way, for the accomplishment of your holy will is my greatest consolation."

The above and the attitude of St Francis in his sufferings is probably the highest of attitudes and holiness in personal suffering.

[Maggyie]

12 minutes ago, Credo in Deum said:

Things to consider:

Gods will is perfect: if you suffer then it is because you need it for your sanctification.

Suffeirng is not evil.  There is nothing evil about suffering. Suffering is a medicine and like all medicine it tastes like poo.  

Suffering, like medicine, is either wasted or utilized.  

God always gives us the grace to bear it.

 

 

So God is not all powerful? He couldn't save us any other way?