Pope Francis Continues to Denigrate Traditionalists

[Nihil Obstat]

Look, I am pretty used to stuff like this. But you just get sick of hearing it day after day.

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=29904

Quote

 

Asked about the liturgy, Pope Francis insisted the Mass reformed after the Second Vatican Council is here to stay and “to speak of a ‘reform of the reform’ is an error.”

In authorizing regular use of the older Mass, now referred to as the “extraordinary form,” now-retired Pope Benedict XVI was “magnanimous” toward those attached to the old liturgy, he said. “But it is an exception.”

Pope Francis told Father Spadaro he wonders why some young people, who were not raised with the old Latin Mass, nevertheless prefer it.

“And I ask myself: Why so much rigidity? Dig, dig, this rigidity always hides something, insecurity or even something else. Rigidity is defensive. True love is not rigid.”

 

We who prefer the traditional Mass are necessarily rigid. Rigidity means we are defensive, hiding something, and we do not have "true love". These are blanket statements.

You know... That is me, my wife, it will be our future children, almost all of our closest friends, everyone at our parish. (And this is a fully 'approved' traditional Mass community, no canonical fighting, no question of our obedience.) The priests who have ministered to our community, the very best priests I have had the honour to know.

You know what I see? Not rigidity or defensiveness. We are all regular Catholics, we take the faith seriously. We get married and have kids, we work hard to make sure our Masses are beautiful, we pray the rosary before Mass, we host catechism classes and chant practicums, we started up a children's chant choir, and our adult choir is excellent and dedicated, we sponsor seminarians and missions. We hold processions, celebrate feast days, host summer camps. We have a men's guild and a mothers' group, the Legion of Mary, Patrician Society. We meet after Mass and have coffee, we play soccer, we look after each other's kids and share meals, we exchange advice and prayers and support. We are just all regular practicing Catholics who want to believe what the Church has always believed.

He is our pope. I pray for him daily, and for his intentions. But the pope simply does not like us. It is clear as day. He wants us not to exist. He has been saying things like this since the first days of his pontificate, and he will continue to say them.

 

Anyway, I am just complaining. Thank you for indulging me.

[Peace]

The so-called "traditionalists" are cool by me. Do your thing. One of the main parishes I go to has TLM and I like the overall atmosphere of the parish a lot. There are plenty of good people there.

The only thing that irritates me is when some of you guys start getting snobbish and imply that you guys are better, more devout, or more authentically Catholic than other folks. It kind of goes both ways. Some people knock you guys for being "Pharisees" or whatever, which is wrong, but then you guys turn around and call the NO "Clown Mass" and so forth.

People should just get in where they fit in, and we should be glad that our Church can take a variety of forms that appeal to different people in different ways. Live and let live.

The pope does favor the NO, and I think he is within his proper authority to state his preference for the NO if he thinks that form is the most edifying for the Church. But I am not really sure if Pope Francis was trying to make a blanket statement about all "traditionalists" though - at least not in that interview. If you read the full quote here is what he said:

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2016/11/11/francis-warns-rigid-liturgy-confesses-soft-spot-old-ladies/

Quote

 

The priest, who is director of the semi-official Jesuit journal Civiltà Cattolica, asked the pope if he saw dangers in some of those calling for a “reform of the reform.”

Francis answers: “I ask myself about this. For example, I always try to understand what’s behind the people who are too young to have lived the pre-conciliar liturgy but who want it. Sometimes I’ve found myself in front of people who are too strict, who have a rigid attitude. And I wonder: How come such a rigidity? Dig, dig, this rigidity always hides something: insecurity, sometimes even more … Rigidity is defensive. True love is not rigid.”

 

It seems like his comments are directed at some people who he finds to be "too strict" but not necessarily at every person who prefers the TLM.

[Gabriela]

Nihil, I feel you. But Peace, I'm really glad you pulled up the original quote. It does seem he wisely qualified this time.

But, in the past, he has made statements that are quite offensive to traditionalists ("like rabbits"?), and charity can only excuse so much before one does start to feel like one's own religious leader doesn't like one. That's a bad position to be in, and I think Pope Francis has placed quite a few Catholics in that position. I don't know if there's precedence for this, i.e., if there's ever been a Pope before who actually said things against certain groups of Catholics (who were not actually out of line with the Church for some reason). This is different from saying things that correct people, or things that some people just disagree with. His remarks are sometimes actually personally judgmental of trads. I tend to think this is a first, for two reasons:

1. We have terrible, blatant factions in the Church right now, and Pope Francis is clearly in one camp, and there's no hiding that. Unless we had a real middle-of-the-road guy, some personal preference or evaluation would be likely to leak out of just about anyone, unless he exercised enormous restraint. To me, this papacy is the pinnacle of the generational, political, factional divide that the VII aftermath created. It's very visible right now.

2. Pope Francis' personal style is very personalistic, very charismatic. In one sense, I think this is good, because it makes a point about the boundaries of institutionalism, about the need for balance and personalness even when leading an enormous organization like the Catholic Church. And I do think the Church desperately needs a reminder of that. But on the other hand, I don't think he's figured out—and sometimes I think he doesn't even care—where the line is between his personal person (if you will) and his role, his office. In his position, comments like those he's made about trads are not received the same way they would be were they made by some lesser figure. And he really ought to be thinking about role and office in such cases, not personalness or charisma.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Gabriela

[Gabriela]

Someone just sent me these articles, which I think are more use here than they are to me:

https://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=690

https://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=691

[Spem in alium]

Thank you for providing that context, Peace. I think the Holy Father was, as both you and Gabriela say, not making a blanket statement about all young people who prefer the Traditional liturgy. It seems to me that he was commenting more upon people who cannot be open, and that he wants to understand why many young people are being drawn to the TLM. That being said, the Holy Father has made comments in the past to indicate something doesn't sit quite right with him about Traditionalists.

Nihil, I can see where you're coming from, and I respect you. Your description of your life sounds like several young people I know who faithfully attend the NO Mass. It's a beautiful and admirable approach to faith and community.

I know several young people who, like you, prefer the Traditional liturgy. They have, unfortunately, had a very negative impact upon other young Catholics, even so far as turning people, including my sister, away from Mass and involvement in Catholic groups. I even know a young priest who celebrates the TLM and is very much focused on pre-Vatican II. He is a nice fellow, and his focus and preference isn't in itself bad, but I can see that he has done harm (though I'm not sure he can see that himself). Now, I'm certainly not saying this is the case with all young people who prefer the TLM. Not at all. But I'm just coming from it from my experience. Like the Holy Father, I would also like to try and understand why more and more young people prefer the TLM - not because I think they shouldn't, but just to understand them better as someone who has been brought closer to God through the NO.

 

Edited November 12, 2016 by Spem in alium
spelling

[Jack4]

7 hours ago, Peace said:

I always try to understand what’s behind the people who are too young to have lived the pre-conciliar liturgy but who want it.

Because if we young people (and all people, for that matter) seek something in the Church, it is for that which the world can't give.  

 

[Nihil Obstat]

Personally I find it abundantly clear that Pope Francis is drawing a "traditional Mass == rigid" link here. The context is window dressing, we know what he meant, because he has made those same comparisons several times before.

It is the same everywhere in the Church right now. As soon as the topic of traditional Catholics comes up, the next breath has to call out and condemn their many faults. Like a script.

[Gabriela]

Yeah, but in fairness, a lot of trads do the exact same thing with VII and the NO. It's just that, at present, they're the marginalized party and Pope Francis and his confreres are the mainstream Catholics. The tables could turn, though, and that wouldn't make the judgments and stereotypes and over-generalizations any more okay on either side.

I actually don't think Pope Francis has ever shown any interest in learning why young people are showing increased interest in the TLM. He shows a lot of interest in judging them for it, but not understanding why they feel that way. I really think that young trads should write an open letter to Pope Francis explaining why they love the TLM, without passing any judgment or in any way maligning VII or the NO. We don't even need to mention VII or the NO; we can love the TLM without reference to anything else or at the expense of anything else or in contrast to anything else. If we write an open letter, then whether he's interested in hearing us out or not, we've at least done something to try to help him understand.

I love the TLM—particularly the Low Mass—for the silence. I love how it fosters in me a disposition to prayer. I love how it feels eternal, or at least very, very old and rooted; as such, when I'm at a TLM I feel like I'm pulled outside of myself into something bigger, something more than myself, something ancient and universal—like God Himself. I love the repetition in the old calendar, because rather than becoming redundant, it forces me to notice important themes again and again, which I need because I'm dense and hearing something once is never enough. I love the Latin, because I think it's actually not that hard to understand liturgical Latin if one just pays attention to the translation for long enough, and because I think that praying in a language reserved for prayer and worship helps to dispose one to prayer, just like kneeling does. I could list a lot of other reasons, but...

[Jack4]

12 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Pope Francis told Father Spadaro he wonders why some young people, who were not raised with the old Latin Mass, nevertheless prefer it.

“And I ask myself: Why so much rigidity? Dig, dig, this rigidity always hides something, insecurity or even something else. Rigidity is defensive. True love is not rigid.”

 

The highlight is that all this comes from someone who one asked, "Who am I to judge?"

But then, I should not forget my imperfections, my sins far more serious than the Pope's scandal-slander; I should ask that question to myself also. Ah well. 

Almighty everlasting God, be gracious to your servant, Francis, our sovereign Pontiff, and in your kindness lead him on the path of everlasting salvation; may he by your grace seek only that which pleases you and carry it out with all his might. 

1 hour ago, Gabriela said:

I love the TLM—particularly the Low Mass—for the silence. I love how it fosters in me a disposition to prayer. I love how it feels eternal, or at least very, very old and rooted; as such, when I'm at a TLM I feel like I'm pulled outside of myself into something bigger, something more than myself, something ancient and universal—like God Himself.

You might like Cardinal Sarah on silence, discussing his new book:

 http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/5100/cardinal_robert_sarah_on_the_strength_of_silence_and_the_dictatorship_of_noise.aspx

1 hour ago, Gabriela said:

Yeah, but in fairness, a lot of trads do the exact same thing with VII and the NO.

A problem is that "traditional Catholic" or "trad" includes many people, having radically different views in V2, eg.:

.It was an invalid Council, and the Popes sine then are fake.

.It was valid, but not perfectly excellent. It was too ambiguous/silent on certain issues.   

.It was actually a wonderful Council. We just have to fight the "false spirit" and "hermeneutic of rupture".

[Jack4]

12 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

We who prefer the traditional Mass are necessarily rigid. Rigidity means we are defensive, hiding something, and we do not have "true love". These are blanket statements

Apparently, St Francis of Assisi did not have "true love". 

[Peace]

5 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Personally I find it abundantly clear that Pope Francis is drawing a "traditional Mass == rigid" link here. The context is window dressing, we know what he meant, because he has made those same comparisons several times before.

It is the same everywhere in the Church right now. As soon as the topic of traditional Catholics comes up, the next breath has to call out and condemn their many faults. Like a script.

So how does it feel to be black?

It's kind of interesting because my first reaction to what you wrote was to think something along the lines of "Please. Stop whining and trying to play the victim. Nobody is discriminating against you."

Honestly, from my perspective, I have not perceived much of a bias or discrimination against the so-called traditionalists, as you have described it. But to you it is very real. Perhaps this is what it feels like to white people when black people complain about discrimination, or what it feels like to men when women complain about discrimination? Perhaps because I am in the majority on this one it is difficult for me to see or feel the type of discrimination that is very real to you, and I dismiss it for that reason instead of listening to what you have to say or trying to look at things from your perspective.

What are some of the other statements that Pope Francis has made to denigrate the so-called traditionalists? I haven't been following this so I honestly do not know what he has said or done that is of concern to you.

At least from my perspective, Pope Francis seems to strongly believe in the VII changes, and thinks that it is good to keep going in that direction. He believes that the "reform of the reform" movement is in error. He is the Pope and if he believes that is correct then I think he is within his proper right to make his opinion known on it. But because he believes that the "reform of the reform" movement is in error, does not mean that he believes that the so-called traditionalists are bad people or bad Catholics. This latter part is not what I have seen, honestly.

To make an analogy, many white people will often point out the large level of crime in black America, our lack of academic achievement, etc., and say that these things need to be improved. While these criticisms themselves may be legitimate, many black people perceive it as racism. They feel that because they are being criticized white people are trying to put them down personally or attack their character, where that may not necessarily be the case. Do you think there is a possibility that the same sort of thing might be going on with the so-called traditionalists? Are you perceiving the criticisms (whether they are legitimate or not) as personal attacks on your character, when that may not actually be the intent behind the criticisms?

As an aside, I don't particularly care when the term "Traditional Catholics" is used to refer to people who prefer the TLM. It is not as though you guys are practicing Catholic Tradition any more so than anyone else in the Church, but I think we have been down this avenue before.

[Sponsa-Christi]

To be fair, I think it's safe to say that Pope Francis has criticized the faults and failings of more or less EVERY group in the Church!

I think it's the Pope's job to challenge us to grow in holiness, and often this can take the form of pointing out areas where some conversion might be needed, or negative tendencies that one might be susceptible to. 

I know he's certainly criticized certain tenancies of canon lawyers in general, but I've never taken it personally or as a sign that the Holy Father would like to do away with canon law altogether. When the Pope says something like: "Canon lawyers can't be so hung up on rules that they forget the person." I don't think: "The Pope wants to do away with marriage!" or "How dare the Pope insult hard-working canon lawyers like that!" Rather, my thought is usually something like: "That's a good reminder of how important it is to be as compassionate as I can with people even when I'm upholding some of the tougher parts of the law."

And to give an even more specific example---even though I'm a consecrated virgin and not a religious, I felt like it still applied to me when the Pope said that nuns shouldn't be "old maids." Neither I nor the Sisters I was living with at the time were insulted by this at all. We basically thought the Pope was spot-on, since we agreed that we should strive to be vibrant spiritual mothers and indeed not old maids in any sense! I actually recall feeling kind of honored that the Pope respected consecrated women and our vocation enough to challenge us to spiritual maturity. 

[Spem in alium]

2 hours ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

And to give an even more specific example---even though I'm a consecrated virgin and not a religious, I felt like it still applied to me when the Pope said that nuns shouldn't be "old maids." Neither I nor the Sisters I was living with at the time were insulted by this at all. We basically thought the Pope was spot-on, since we agreed that we should strive to be vibrant spiritual mothers and indeed not old maids in any sense! I actually recall feeling kind of honored that the Pope respected consecrated women and our vocation enough to challenge us to spiritual maturity. 

Agreed. I do think by saying this, Pope Francis is encouraging us (sisters, in this case) to be vibrant, to be open and available. I recently reflected on his address to consecrated persons given during WYD in Poland. Some things he said in that address could be viewed as offensive. It's actually a really challenging document, and I believe it needs to be. But I think it, and comments like those made about people preferring the TLM, are perhaps the Holy Father's way of challenging us to be better than we are, to be Christ on earth for others. Sometimes he gets it wrong, of course, and sometimes he does take it further than we'd like or even than is appropriate. I think we just need to read between the lines of what he's saying, and to approach it with our focus on God and what He wills for us.

[Norseman82]

So does that makes traditionalists the Catholic version of "deplorables"?

[Nihil Obstat]

The comparison has been made.