Pope Francis Continues to Denigrate Traditionalists

[Nihil Obstat]

9 minutes ago, Amppax said:

This article (http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otc.cfm?id=1432) popped up on my newsfeed. I think it is of interest to this discussion. 

Yes, I largely agree. Very reasonable. Similar to what the Remnant has always said, incidentally.

[Guest]

And alot of Traditionalists haven't denigrated him? I've seen him called the 6 letter f word in an article on one of those websites you mention. The hate is definitely real. How does the Remnant let that lady write for them when she routinely calls gay people fags? Over and over again? I thought we were supposed to show love and sensitivity to homosexuals? Not saying I'm not guilty myself but I don't write for the Remnant(A Catholic website?) and I'm trying to grow in charity and understanding in this area. Obviously charity and understanding doesn't mean thinking gay marriage should ever be accepted as normal or that gay fornication can ever not be sinful. But charity and understanding in realizing it's not acceptable and is probably gravely sinful to refer to gay people as fags. Especially in articles you write for a "Catholic?" publication. I'm praying Pope Francis works things out with the 4 Cardinals. Maybe he is wrong on this. That's not my call but I do think I tend to lean towards there being problems with what the Pope is trying to teach. But I'm just an alcoholic poker player and a miserable sinner so I realize my thoughts on wether the Pope is in error or not matters to no one. On the other hand someone like you is way more informed and your opinion carries weight. I say that with no malice. I've learned alot from you and plan to continue to. And like I said I lean towards agreeing with your and other Trads view on this. But I definitely won't go around declaring Pope Francis an official heretic and anti pope and all the other stuff I read about him on these websites. Or calling him a *****. When there's a council and it's declared he isn't Pope anymore then I will accept that and recognize the new Pope. Until then Pope Francis is still the Pope and should be treated with respect.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Guest

[Amppax]

On 11/17/2016 at 8:41 AM, Jack4 said:

@Peace,

I do agree that your statement in this post (re: people agreeing with the Pope) is factually correct. (incidentally, that was in response to one of my own posts)

Nonetheless, your post:

Don't you think you could have phrased it better, making it more reflecting of merciful love? What makes you think Socrates is guilty of it? 

There's like years of history here, young grasshopper, that are from before your time. Before Peace's too, as a matter of fact. 

Not saying that excuses being uncharitable, there's just much more to it than what you've seen. 

 

[Jack4]

7 hours ago, Amppax said:

There's like years of history here, young grasshopper, that are from before your time. Before Peace's too, as a matter of fact. 

Not saying that excuses being uncharitable, there's just much more to it than what you've seen. 

 

@Amppax, 

Are you saying that, in those posts, there is more to it than the surface, something which happened in the past was reflected there? Forgive my ignorance of this language, my brother. 

[Guest]

On 11/23/2016 at 7:05 AM, organwerke said:

I am with you. I can't stand this pope anymore. 

The Pope Is Dope 

[Amppax]

20 hours ago, Jack4 said:

@Amppax, 

Are you saying that, in those posts, there is more to it than the surface, something which happened in the past was reflected there? Forgive my ignorance of this language, my brother. 

Yes, that's what I'm saying. I was trying to be witty; I'm not always successful. 

[CountrySteve937]

One thing I don't get, why do we have to divide ourselves into different groups? I don't think we should be divided into "groups" such as traditionalist's,progressivists etc. It does not help; plus St. Paul in his First Epistle to the Corinthians warns against that.

Quote

"I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment." - 1st Corinthians 1:10

   

[Jack4]

27 minutes ago, Amppax said:

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

Thank you for clarifying. 

Quote

I was trying to be witty; I'm not always successful.

Mea culpa, ESL. 

23 minutes ago, CountrySteve21 said:

One thing I don't get, why do we have to divide ourselves into different groups? I don't think we should be divided into "groups" such as traditionalist's,progressivists etc. It does not help; plus St. Paul in his First Epistle to the Corinthians warns against that.

   

In essentials, unity

In non essentials, liberty

In all things, charity.

[Guest]

Quotation re "in essentials unity etc." sometimes attributed to St Augustine but that is challenged.  Anyway, St Paul would trump St Augustine in my book.  Also, what St Paul stated would be an essential (i.e. unity) - see post by  @CountrySteve21.  "All things love" is sometimes shaky too as a lived out expression of The Gospel and Catholicism for one - mea culpa.  Be that as it may, "Love" would mean agape.

"Non essentials" would be where The Church has left a question open for debate.

_________________

There are questions open for debate by The Church; however, especially where groups have formed in The Church there can be a tendency at times to state their position as the only position.

Edited November 28, 2016 by BarbaraTherese

[Jack4]

1 hour ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Quotation re "in essentials unity etc." sometimes attributed to St Augustine but that is challenged. 

I know, but that alone wouldn't change the truth of the statement. 

Don't you like Hark Herald the Angels Sing?

Quote

 Anyway, St Paul would trump St Augustine in my book.

Read the rest of this post: There is no contradiction between Paul and (pseudo) Augustine here. 

But yes, what you said seems to be correct, though I would phrase it very differently: Scripture would trump the individual writing of a Father. 

Quote

 Also, what St Paul stated would be an essential (i.e. unity) - see post by  @CountrySteve21.  "All things love" is sometimes shaky too as a lived out expression of The Gospel and Catholicism for one - mea culpa.  Be that as it may, "Love" would mean agape.

Can you explain further?

Quote

"Non essentials" would be where The Church has left a question open for debate.

Choice, here. We (or rather, you) may choose to attend the EF or OF (to put it simply. there are, as you know, some requirements.)

_______

What was the context of Paul in 1Cor1 ? 

 

10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?

 

Let us not forget that he was the person who boldly admonished the then-Pope at Antioch. 

Edited November 28, 2016 by Jack4

[dominicansoul]

15 hours ago, CountrySteve21 said:

One thing I don't get, why do we have to divide ourselves into different groups? I don't think we should be divided into "groups" such as traditionalist's,progressivists etc. It does not help; plus St. Paul in his First Epistle to the Corinthians warns against that.

   

Well then we should all be traditionalists.  lol

[truthfinder]

I feel like this fits here: http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2016/11/for-record-in-latest-interview-pope.html

Seminaries as 'rigid' too (it feels like there's an undertone that the most particularly 'rigid' are those with seminarians who are attached to anything traditional)

[CountrySteve937]

4 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

Well then we should all be traditionalists.  lol

Too a degree, after all the Church was not born in the 70s. I would love to see a wider use of the E.F. Missal and if the Pope was to abolish the O.F. Missal I would not complain.  

However my point was  the division can be problematic. Some "trads" for example have a schismatic mentality which undermines the authority of our bishops. On the other hand though, the "liberals" embracing heresy isn't good either.

And yes, by my use of labels that makes me a hypocrite.

[Jack4]

5 hours ago, CountrySteve21 said:

Too a degree, after all the Church was not born in the 70s. I would love to see a wider use of the E.F. Missal and if the Pope was to abolish the O.F. Missal I would not complain.  

That is against the spirit of Vatican II ! 

[CountrySteve937]

11 hours ago, Jack4 said:

That is against the spirit of Vatican II ! 

My bad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPu01aXBS1I

Much better.

[Guest]

Rad Trads love the Holy Father and all the Pope does is attack them and call them rigid.

Won't name the Rad Trads aka best Catholics of all time who was distributing these.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Guest

[Jack4]

3 hours ago, CountrySteve21 said:

My bad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPu01aXBS1I

Much better.

Yeah. 

It's so wonderful to have Vatican II allow the Church to grow into the modern times. Who in the world likes 

https://youtu.be/jRY8Bjc-Kw8 Axion Estin, Byzantine tradition

https://youtu.be/ZRhb56R_4aE Sogdinan la Slibo, West Syriac tradition

https://youtu.be/xyYs3dDoOIw Laku Mara, East Syriac (my!) tradition

https://youtu.be/ZVwuc_CNswY  Praeconium Paschale ("Exultet"), Roman tradition

Can you even compare them with https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbNXqjwh8is (Gather us in) ?

 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Jack4

[Nihil Obstat]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

Rad Trads love the Holy Father and all the Pope does is attack them and call them rigid.

 

 

Won't name the Rad Trads aka best Catholics of all time who was distributing these.

Josh, I do not engage with self-righteousness and temper tantrums. If you want to have a discussion about traditionalists then I am happy to do so, but first cut it out with the outrage. If all you want to do is complain about how mean traditionalists are, then find somewhere else to do it.

[Guest]

Just now, Nihil Obstat said:

Josh, I do not engage with self-righteousness and temper tantrums. If you want to have a discussion about traditionalists then I am happy to do so, but first cut it out with the outrage. If all you want to do is complain about how mean traditionalists are, then find somewhere else to do it.

I'm just posting on Phatmass lol Deal with it.

[Nihil Obstat]

Just now, Josh said:

I'm just posting on Phatmass lol Deal with it.

I always treat you with respect. If I cannot expect the same in return, then I guess that is how it is.